Sarah: Hey everyone!
My name is Sarah, and welcome back to Everyday Consent.
We had a lot of great footage from last week's Consent Chat, so we wanted to actually make
a Part II video, so here is that Part II.
Xanda: Hi, I'm Xanda and I'm PGP "she" and I am pansexual and I'm currently in a long-term
relationship.
Sarah: Have you found that consent works for you in different ways in different kinds of
relationships?
Xanda: Yeah, I think that's true.
I think there have been various parts of my life where I've been more or less of a "player"
if you will, and I think that if you're sort of playing around more with a lot of different
people and you don't really have figured out exactly what you're lookin' for yet or what
this person likes, I feel like initially I would start with a little bit more conservative
requests.
And would go a little bit--with like smaller requests and I'd be more okay if the sign
of consent was implicit because it was things that were pretty easy to see that we were
leading on to--I'm not actually entirely sure that I'm pleased that that was what I did.
But I feel like in hookup culture a lot of the time it's like, you're not gonna do something
particularly out there, and if the other person is still enthusiastically making out with
you then you're probably still good.
And you keep going and if somebody moves your hand then you stop doing whatever you were
doing, and that's okay.
And the being able to do the hand movements and things like that but otherwise follow
a kind of normal script is okay for people you're just friends plus with or whatever,
you're not--you haven't started experimenting with anything more creative.
If you were in a situation where you're experimenting with things that are more creative.
Or you've gotten to know someone and you're trying different stuff.
Or you're just trying to figure out what's good for the day, I feel like then you wanna
be a little more descriptive.
And I think usually by that point you're also more comfortable being more descriptive.
So you've sort of developed some space, some vulnerability with that person and that's
alright.
I think it does sort of scale up over time.
I find the latter much more comfortable and I think if I went back into the hookup scene
now, which I don't think I would want--I don't think I would do very well there anyways--but
I think that I'd probably try to carry that back in because it just feels way better.
I don't know what I was doing before.
Sarah: So you think that if you had to do things over again then you would be a bit
more explicit in more casual relationships?
Xanda: Yeah.
Yeah, and I think it probably be--it'd probably be weirder, but at the same time--
Sarah: Why do you think it would be weirder?
Xanda: I think it's weirder because it's just--I remember, when I first ran into other people
being explicit about that when they were people that I didn't know that well yet, I was like,
"Okay.
Yeah I can go with this but I wasn't expecting you to say that," and like and I was still
trying to learn what exactly I was supposed to be doing and so forth.
And so I feel like my expectation would be that other people would be weirded out and
because of that I would also be weirded out.
It just sorta carries--carries through and I think it's--and it's something where it's
like once I'm comfortable talking to somebody I'll talk to them about anything.
I'm not a very private person.
But not necessarily having crossed that line, it would be confusing to have conversations
about things that are non-trivial and so I'd probably just go more based upon the "implicit
hookup script".
Sarah: Right.
But you were saying that you think you would bring what you've learned from your more explicit
relationships back to that--
Xanda: Yeah, I think I'd try to--
Sarah: So do you think you would maybe fight that instinct a bit more or--
Xanda: Yeah, I think so.
I think ultimately I found that I'm much happier when I'm clear about it and occasionally it
isn't actually so weird when I say exactly what I want.
That it can be really hot to say that.
Or to be like, "The thing that I'm going to do now is this--this step, and then this step,
and then this step, and then I have this like lacy thing, and--" and then usually this is
highly encouraged, in fact.
And also--even if it is unexpected and at first it's a little bit weird, it might feel
unnatural, that it is also a lot of fun.
And then that can be worth it.
And I think the unnatural used to outweigh it for me, and now I think the fun does.
I'm just more comfortable in my own body than I then I was a few years ago too, so--
Sarah: That can be a factor.
Xanda: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's I spend a lot less time being like, "Is this a normal thing to want?" and
being like, "Well, if they're up for it, yeah."
Sarah: What do you think is important in trying to establish consent in new relationships?
Xanda: Be honest.
Not just in the talking to each other about what you want and so forth, but in your reactions
to things.
Be honest and friendly and forgiving.
To set sort of a precedent for being able to talk about things.
'Cause I think that's the thing is like before you can really ask for and respond to and
consent to things well, you have to be comfortable saying those words.
And practicing that relies on partly just knowing how to say those words in the first
place but it does also rely on trusting the people you're around enough with your reactions.
And that comes from a back and forth for a little while.
Sarah: Yeah.
You said something about forgiving.
So that's an interesting point that like there's saying things and there's also listening,
right?
Would you say that that's true?
Xanda: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Like actually paying attention, 'cause sometimes I feel like I've had experiences where it
hasn't been something that's been particularly disturbing to me but where I've been like,
"No I don't want you to do that tonight," like, "Oh, I don't want you to go down on
me tonight," and apparently this is something that can be highly implausible to anyone.
"What?
You would not want that?"
And I have to be like, "No, really.
I do not want you to do that tonight.
It's not that I mind you, I'm just not in the mood, I'm tired."
And I feel like that's confusing initially.
That's hard to do.
Sarah: Yeah, it can be very confusing.
Like I know I've been confused when a partner--
Xanda: But it's, yeah--and I've had partners who have tried to go for it anyways and I
have to be like, "No really, no."
And then they'll feel really bad about it.
And I have to be like, "Nonono, I'm fine.
I'm cool.
I told you no and then I made sure it was clear I mean 'No'.
I'm not saying this 'cause I'm ashamed or anything like that.
If I wanted you to go down on me, I would make sure you knew."
But I think making sure that it's like, "It's gonna be okay.
I'm not still mad.
Now that we're out of the situation where I'm not doing a thing that I didn't want to
be doing, I'm perfectly happy."
That's hard initially.
But the being able to say, "This is a thing that happened.
We goofed.
It's not that big a deal right now.
Let's move on."
And that's important to get early, and to get right.
Sarah: That makes a lot of sense.
And also, about--going off of what you were talking about, just the ability to sort of
comfort the other person and be like, "No, this is--I'm saying these things but it doesn't
mean everything's exploding.
Like, we are having a conversation, and--"
Xanda: Yeah.
Yeah.
I've definitely had moments where it's like, "No.
No.
No." and then five seconds later I'm fine but the other person is freaked out 'cause
I don't usually respond that strongly with a "no."
Umm, and yeah.
Sarah: Right.
So, it's kind of a--us all getting used to hearing--hearing "no," basically.
And saying it.
Xanda: Yeah.
Yeah, it's good to practice your "no".
We should like, have the video here.
Practice.
Sarah: Ah, she's a natural.
Xanda: Practice your "no".
Put that right there.
Sarah: Right there.
Sarah: What messages do you feel that you received about consent growing up.
Xanda: Mostly I was in a reasonably sex-positive community.
Which is surprising 'cause I went to Catholic school, but--umm, so--and we had a--and it
was all girls too.
So we had a--sort of our angle--I don't think we honestly talked about consent that much
though, as a result.
'Cause I think a lot of the perception was that we as sexual beings--it was okay for
us to be sexual beings but we wouldn't usually be in a situation of power where we would
be causing a problem so we knew the basic things about, you know, "Say no.
Mean no.
Make sure you're seeing people who agree with that."
We didn't know that much about like, how you actually respond and clarify these situations
because of the--I feel like the assumption was, and I wish this was an assumption that
worked in the real world, who had been the more powerful agent is, in a given situation
where somebody could be getting forced into something or coerced into something that they
don't want to do and they haven't consented to, should be responsible for figuring that
out and not--and stopping it right away.
Sometimes, they can't tell, unfortunately.
So having more of a narrative is really important for that.
But I know that when I was first starting to sleep with women I didn't know a lot and
my mother was advising me on things and I sort of started to figure out, "Oh yeah, maybe
I should do this," but I don't think I ever remember wondering whether or not I should
ask.
It was obviously a, "Do you want to do this thing?"
I'm not gonna just start doin' it.
Especially when you're a high school student trying to figure out how to sleep with girls.
That's just a complicated situation in the first place.
I had no idea what I was doing.
Other girl had no idea what she was doing.
Everyone was just like, "Umm."
I recognized those bits.
"I feel like there are things--I--does it actually carry over?"
And so you do kind of have to talk.
Maybe it was easier 'cause I was talking to girls about it.
Then we'd talk.
Sarah: That's actually a really interesting question.
Like have your sexual relationships with women versus with men been different as far as consent
goes?
Xanda: I feel like, right of the bat, when I've had relationships with women or just
hookups with women, we've started talking.
Like we've been very clear immediately about what it is.
And I feel like with guys that's a little less normal.
Like usually it's taken a little bit or I'll start talking or I'll start poking them like,
"You know, if this is a thing you like, you should ask for it.
That would be cool.
That would help me figure out what I should be doing."
But for girls I mean every single person I can think of, like within the first hookup
they were like, "Do this.
Don't do that.
Over here."
And I'd be like, "Okay.
Good.
Yes.
Great.
I can do that.
I can follow instructions."
And I think maybe it's--maybe there's some sort of cultural thing about guys just supposed--being
supposed to "know" what they're supposed to do.
As opposed to actually having a conversation about it.
Whereas with girls it's we've got--there's a lot of different directions you can go,
sleeping with a girl.
So I think that there needs to be some clarity early on anyway.
So you start talking pretty soon.
Sarah: Interesting.
So, do you think--I guess my question is, why do you think that is?
You touched on a little bit about maybe it's societal differences in how men and women
are treated.
Do you think it's a--actually here's a question, do you think it's more societal differences
of expectations for men versus women or societal expectations--differences in societal expectations
for heterosexual relationships versus homosexual relationships?
Xanda: Well I don't know 'cause I haven't ever been a gay guy who's slept with another
guy.
Sarah: Fair enough.
Xanda: So I don't know how good of a read I can get on this, but umm.
I feel like at some level it's a little bit of both.
Part of it is--is sort of a male thing.
But I think it does sort of tie to the hetero male image as opposed to the homosexual male
image.
That it's--you're supposed to--there's a script.
I mean I keep saying--I feel like I'm saying this a lot of times but there's a hookup script
that a lot of us have and it's evolved over time, but usually there is one initial soft
of image of what a sexual encounter looks like that we all learn from movies and so
forth.
And it is heterosexual and the guy just sorta starts doing a thing and the girl's on the
bottom and the--that's just the--that's the script.
And the assumption is that the guy is supposed to be doing that for some measure of "well"
that he is totally unclear to him but he is working on it as best as he can.
And he's supposed to figure it out on his own and it's like, "Well, that's not gonna
happen."
Anyway.
Also he has a target like that big, that's not fair at all.
Sarah: Well it does range in size, to be fair, but--
Xanda: And it's dark.
Which is, oh, okay, nonetheless.
I always feel like that's an unfair challenge.
"Figure this out on your own.
Go."
Sarah: Penises do, at least initially, seem more simple than vulvas.
That much is true.
Xanda: Yeah this is--those are pretty obvious.
And people talk about what to do with penises a lot more.
Sarah: Yeah.
That's actually another good point.
Xanda: There's a pretty clear set of actions that will, that might not be the best but
get you started pretty well and nobody is gonna complain.
Sarah: And also might not work for that person.
Everybody is different.
But--
Xanda: This is true.
Sarah: But you have like things and you're like, "I've heard about this in a movie."
Xanda: There's differences, but like there's a couple safe bets.
Sarah: Yeah.
Xanda: Whereas for girls it's like, "No, a quarter centimeter to the right; circles."
Sarah: "And diagonal.
Nonono, diagonal to the right."
Xanda: "Circles, diagonal circles."
Sarah: "Like an oval in this shape, actually, no--no actually down--"
Xanda: "Are you familiar with a Gaussian distribution?"
Sarah: "That's actually my favorite."
Xanda: I should come up with a Gaussian distribution of what feels good.
Sarah: That would actually be great.
I would love that.
Please, please make that.
Sarah: So thank you so much for coming on today, Xanda.
This was really fun.
If you have any follow-up questions for Xanda, you can post them in the comments or email
them to me and I'll pass them on to see if she wants to answer them.
If you liked this video and want to see more of these Consent Chats press "like", and if
you just want to see more videos from me, please press "subscribe".
Happy consenting folks, and I'll see you next week!