Amna: Nearly 250 years ago,
America's founders came together
to declare that everyone has
unalienable rights. Just what
those rights are has been
debated ever since.
Judy woodruff looked at those
questions and more today in a
visit to the university of
Virginia in charlottesville.
Judy: Thanks, amna.
I came here to uva to take part
in a program honoring the
newshour's co-founder and former
anchor, the late Jim Lehrer.
And while here, I had the chance
to speak with a professor who's
long been interested in
America's polarization, which
has only grown sharper in the
past few years, including just
last week with the supreme court
and the abortion rights draft.
He is political scientist sid
milkis, whose latest book is
"What happened to the vital
center?"
Thank you very much for talking
with us.
You have studied and written so
much about democracy.
You have looked really hard at
what has held us together and
what has driven us apart.
Where are we right now?
Prof. Milkis: We are fighting
over the meaning of our rights,
the meaning of the constitution.
I think what strikes me as
different about the contemporary
period of polarization is our
democracy is so unfiltered, if
you will.
That many of the institutions
that in the past constrained our
battles, as fundamental as they
have been, have been weakened
considerably.
And I look to the 1960's as an
important period that began to
weaken some of the key
institutions that have been
critical to building a consensus
in American politics.
Judy: And you also write about
the growing importance, the
growing power of the executive
branch, the presidency.
What effect does that had on our
democracy?
Prof. Milkis: For a long time,
until the 1960's, there was some
obligation on the part of the
president to stand above
partisanship, to moderate
As Theodore Roosevelt put it in
a beguiling way, the president
was supposed to be the steward
of public welfare.
Presidents did not completely
live up to that, but there was
an obligation to a least
transcend to a degree
partisanship.
And I think that has changed
since the 1960's.
We have seen a merger of
partisanship and executive
power.
I think that is a very
combustible combination.
Judy: And I think some people
have been tempted to say former
president trump is the zenith of
that.
Your argument is that this all
started before he came along.
Prof. Milkis: A lot of the
issues that former president
trump made central to our
political battle really starts
in the 1960's.
And really have their origin
with the conservative reaction
to the dramatic social and
cultural changes that take place
in the 1960's.
Civil rights being the most
dramatic example of that.
And in response to that the
conservative movement has
emerged.
They emphasize things like law &
order, protecting family values,
protecting the right of parents
to have some influence on te
curriculum.
All of these issues are there in
the 60's and they have kind of
filtered through our political
system ever sense.
And I think what happens is
president trump rings them to
ahead and away that had not
occurredbefore his presidency.
Judy: Given where we are and the
corrosive effects on it seems to
me our ability to work together,
how far do you think this could
go?
Some people have said maybe we
will have another civil war.
What do you think?
Prof. Milkis: It is really
frightening, Judy, that a lot of
commentators have referred to
this period as the cold civil
war in American politics.
And the question is could it
become a hot civil war?
Of course what happened on
January 6 was a really serious,
foreboding of such a
possibility.
The foundation of
self-government in the united
States was challenged in a way
that has not happened before.
The challenge to the notion that
we had a free and fair election
when all evidence pointed to the
fact that we did, suggests that
we are in a very dangerous place
in American politics.
I do not think we are at a place
where we are going to be
shooting at each other but I
definitely think a political
system is in dire straits when
each side views the other as an
existential threat to American
democracy and to their
understanding of what American
life is all about.
Amna: --
Judy: I was struck in the book
that at one point you cite two
other scholars saying few other
societies in history have
managed to be both multiracial
and genuinely democratic.
That is something.
Prof. Milkis: It is really
something.
And it is hard to find reason to
be optimistic in American
politics.
But I'm less supposed to
polarization that a lot of my
colleagues.
Because I think in a sense,
democracy, what should be
understood as democracy takes
flight in the 1960's.
Before the 1960's if you look at
comparative politics anyway
politics are measured, given the
Jim crow system and the other
discriminations against people
of color, we were not a
democracy until the 1960's.
And so it is not surprising that
since self-government in America
really took flight only 50 years
ago we are having these
struggles over these issues.
And I think it is something we
have to have.
Because what would really make
us exceptional is if we can find
a way to reconcile democracy in
a multiracial, multiethnic
society.
Judy: Given what you said that
you are not so discouraged about
polarization, that it is may a
healthy thing going on right
now, where are we headed?
Do you see this being healed in
coming years?
Prof. Milkis: I am a lot better
at explaining diseases then
coming up with remedies for
them.
I don't see anything immediate
that is going to heal us.
But in addition to the fact that
we are having a very important
conversation, that may be
resolved by things like massive
demographic shifts.
My students, for example, I
don't think they are nearly as
polarizing as the rest of the
country.
I think they look at us with a
bit of disdain, that our
generation, the generations
before them are so divided.
A lot of these social issues I
have talked about, they are very
comfortable with them.
They are pretty comfortable
about having hard
conversations.
So that is one hope,
generational change, which is a
way of American democracy has
developed throughout our
history.
New generations.
Jefferson felt it was absolutely
essential to American democracy,
that every generation would have
an opportunity to define the
definition to fit their
circumstances.
So that is one thing that gives
me some optimism.
Judy: That is a good note to end
on.
Professor, thank you very much.
Prof. Milkis: It has been an
honor to be with you.
Judy: It has been an honor to be
here at the university of
Virginia, where earlier today I
took part in a program honoring
my late colleague, Jim Lehrer.
You can watch my conversation
about how we at the "Newshour"
work to live up to the standards
Jim set.