LEARNING TODAY, AND OF COURSE REPORTING FROM HER NEW BOOK,
WHICH ALSO TOUCHES ON UKRAINE.
SO ALL OF THAT’S IN THE SHOW.
BUT WE BEGIN WITH THE ACTION ON
THE IMPEACHMENT PROBE AGAINST
DONALD TRUMP.
DONALD TRUMP. HEARING FROM KEY WITNESSES
ANOTHER NEW PERSON SAYS THEY
WILL TESTIFY AND WHAT LOOKS LIKE
A STONE WALL CRACKING AS THAT
UKRAINE SCANDAL ENGULFS DONALD
TRUMP’S PRESIDENCY.
TRUMP’S PRESIDENCY. A FOURTH GIULIANI ASSOCIATE
ARRESTED THIS MORNING, TAKEN
INTO FEDERAL CUSTODY AT JFK
AIRPORT BY THE FBI.
THE MAN YOU SEE IS LINKED TO THE
OTHER UKRAINIAN BUSINESSMEN WHO
HAVE THOSE TIES TO GIULIANI
INDICTED.
INDICTED. ALL FOUR DUE IN COURT TOMORROW.
NOW, CNN IS REPORTING THE
CRIMINAL PROBE OF GIULIANI ALSO
NOW INCLUDES, ACCORDING TO CNN’S
REPORTING, WHAT THEY CALL
COUNTERINTELLIGENCE CONCERNS.
COUNTERINTELLIGENCE CONCERNS. NOW, THAT’S A BIG DEAL.
BECAUSE IT COULD MEAN THERE ARE
NATIONAL SECURITY IMPLICATIONS
TO ALL OF THIS.
AND IT ALSO MEANS POTENTIAL
CHARGES.
CHARGES. DONALD TRUMP SEEMED TO TURN ON
GIULIANI, THEN HE SEEMED TO
EMBRACE HIM THIS WEEKEND.
AND JUST ON CUE, HERE HE IS,
DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM HIM
TODAY.
TODAY. >> RUDY WAS SEEKING OUT
CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. AND I THINK THERE’S NOTHING
WRONG WITH SEEKING OUT
CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. >> DID RUDY REGISTER AS A
FOREIGN LOBBYIST?
FOREIGN LOBBYIST? >> I DON’T KNOW WHAT HE DID.
I DON’T KNOW.
THAT’S UP TO HIM.
THAT YOU HAVE TO ASK -- EXCUSE
ME, NO.
ME, NO. YOU HAVE TO ASK RUDY THOSE
QUESTIONS.
QUESTIONS. DON’T ASK ME.
>> "YOU HAVE TO ASK RUDY."
ANYONE WHO’S BEEN A LAWYER FOR
DONALD TRUMP KNOWS THAT’S NOT
THE GREATEST SIGN.
MEANWHILE, DEMOCRATS ARE ASKING
MIKE POMPEO’S FORMER ADVISER
ABOUT WHAT WAS AN ABRUPT
RESIGNATION, SUSPICIOUS GIVEN
EVERYTHING THAT’S GOING ON.
AND THAT INDIVIDUAL, HIS NAME IS
MICHAEL McKINLEY, IS TESTIFYING
THAT HE SAW THIS PLOT, THESE
POLITICS AS UNDERCUTTING HIS
FOREIGN POLICY OBLIGATIONS AND
HE RESIGNED OVER THE OUSTING,
WHICH RUDY GIULIANI AND OTHERS
HAD PUSHED FOR, OF THE U.S.
AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE IN THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. MEANWHILE, THE PERSON WHO TOOK
OVER AS ACTING AMBASSADOR TO
UKRAINE, BILL TAYLOR, IS ON HIS
WAY TO TESTIFY.
HE IS ANOTHER KEY WITNESS.
REMEMBER, THERE’S A LOT OF NAMES
HERE, BUT HE IS THE ONE WHERE IF
YOU DON’T REMEMBER HIS NAME, I
BET YOU REMEMBER HIS TEXT
EXCHANGE, BECAUSE HE TALKED TO
DONALD TRUMP’S HAND-PICKED
AMBASSADOR TO THE EU, GORDON
SONDLAND.
SONDLAND. MR. TAYLOR IS THE ONE WHO WROTE,
QUOTE, IT IS CRAZY TO WITHHOLD
FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.
FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE. SPEAKER PELOSI JUST DESCRIBED A
POTENTIAL, WHAT SHE SEES AS A
KIND OF A MELTDOWN TODAY AFTER
THE UNITED STATES HOUSE PASSED
THIS RESOLUTION CONDEMNING THE
PRESIDENT’S DECISION TO WITHDRAW
FROM SYRIA.
FROM SYRIA. >> GO AHEAD.
>> WITNESS ON THE PART OF THE
PRESIDENT WAS A MELTDOWN.
SAD TO SAY.
>> HE WAS INSULTING.
PARTICULARLY TO THE SPEAKER.
SHE KEPT HER COOL COMPLETELY.
BUT HE CALLED HER A THIRD-RATE
POLITICIAN.
POLITICIAN. THIS WAS NOT A DIALOGUE.
IT WAS SORT OF A DIATRIBE.
A NASTY DIATRIBE.
>> I’M JOINED NOW BY MATT
MILLER, WHO WORKED AT THE DOJ
DURING THE OBAMA AND HOLDER
ADMINISTRATION.
ADMINISTRATION. MAYA WILEY, FROM SDNY, AND THE
DAILY BEAST’S BETSY
WOODRUFF-SWAN.
WOODRUFF-SWAN. GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE.
MATT, GIVEN ALL THE INNER BRANCH
INTERPLAY AND SOMETHING YOU’VE
DEALT WITH WHEN SOMETIMES
AGENCIES HAVE REASONS THEY PUSH
PEOPLE FROM TESTIFYING OR HOW
THEY TESTIFY, WHAT DO YOU SEE
HERE IN WHAT IS WIDELY BEING
DESCRIBED AS A STONEWALL
CRUMBLING
CRUMBLING CRUMBLING?
CRUMBLING? >> I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING THAT’S HAPPENED OVER THE
PAST WEEK IS THAT WE’VE SEEN
THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
PEOPLE FROM THE ADMINISTRATION
WHO HAVE DECIDED TO PUT EITHER
PATRIOTISM OR SELF-INTEREST OVER
PROTECTING DONALD TRUMP.
AND LOOK, PEOPLE COME FORWARD
FOR DIFFERENT MOTIVES.
I THINK THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE,
BILL TAYLOR IS PROBABLY GOING TO
BE ONE OF THEM, WHO WILL BE
ORDERED BY THE ADMINISTRATION
NOT TO TESTIFY, WHO DON’T CARE.
GEORGE KENT YESTERDAY, THE STATE
DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL CAME AND
TESTIFIED DESPITE A STATE
DEPARTMENT DIRECTIVE NOT TO DO
SO.
SO. AND I THINK BOTH OF THEM WILL DO
SO, BECAUSE WHAT THEY SAW INSIDE
THE ADMINISTRATION, THEY VERY
MUCH DISAGREE WITH, AND THEY SEE
IT AS THEIR PATRIOTIC DUTY TO
COME FORWARD.
COME FORWARD. AND I THINK THERE ARE OTHER
PEOPLE, KURT VOLCKER IS ONE OF
THEM, GEORGE SONDLAND IS
ANOTHER, WHO SEE THEMSELVES AS
BEING FINGERED AS HAVING KEY
LIABILITY IN THIS PLOT.
AS BEING PART OF THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE TRYING TO CARRY OUT THE
PRESIDENT’S CORRUPTION WISH EES’
AND THEY WANT TO GET IN AND TELL
THEIR SIDE OF THE STORY TO MAKE
SURE THAT WHEN THIS STORY IS
WRITTEN, THEY ARE NOT THE FALL
GUY FOR DONALD TRUMP.
>> YEAH, YOU TALK ABOUT THE FALL
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. BETSY, WHAT WE SEE HERE IS, TO
THE EXTENT THE IDEA WAS TO KEEP
THIS PLOT UNDER WRAPS, IT WAS
ACTUALLY TOO WIDESPREAD.
TOO, PERHAPS, I DON’T WANT TO
SAY SOPHISTICATE, BUT IT HAD TOO
MANY MOVING PARTS TO KEEP IT
UNDER WRAPS.
UNDER WRAPS. AND NOW A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE
ARE SAYING, HEY, I’VE GOT TO
TELL THE STORY.
FROM MATT’S POINT, I WANT TO
READ FROM SOME OF HIS REPORTING,
BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY
DIFFERENT STRANDS TONIGHT.
THE FORMER ADVISER AND
AMBASSADOR, FIONA HILL, TALKING
ABOUT MR. SONDLAND, WHO WAS
INITIALLY QUOTING AND KIND OF
DEFENDING, ALLEGEDLY, THE TRUMP
VIEW OF THIS.
AND SHE SAYS, LOOK.
SONDLAND, SHE SAW, AS A NATIONAL
SECURITY RISK, DESCRIBING HIM,
THE TRUMP DONOR-TURNED
AMBASSADOR, AS METAPHORICALLY
DRIVING IN AN UNFAMILIAR PLACE
WITH NO GUARD RAILS AND NO GPS,
BETSY.
BETSY. >> THAT’S RIGHT.
AND PART OF THE REASON THAT THIS
IS SEEN SO WIDELY THROUGHOUT THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS THAT
RUDY GIULIANI’S INFLUENCE
PROJECT WAS WIDE RANGING.
HE WASN’T JUST REACHING OUT TO
THE PRESIDENT, BUT TO FOLKS
THROUGHOUT GOVERNMENT.
THROUGHOUT GOVERNMENT. AND EVERYONE WHO HE TALKED TO
ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR
UNDERTAKING IS NOW, WHETHER THEY
LIKE IT OR NOT, WRAPPED UP IN
THIS INVESTIGATION.
THIS INVESTIGATION. AND PART OF THE REASON THAT
WE’RE SEEING SO MANY OF THESE
FOLKS COME FORWARD, INCLUDING
PEOPLE LIKE SONDLAND, WHO HAVE
BEEN POLITICAL ALLIES OF THE
PRESIDENT, IS THAT THEY’RE
HAVING TO THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR
PERHAPS THE FIRST TIME IN THIS
ADMINISTRATION, ABOUT LIFE AFTER
TRUMP.
TRUMP. AND THEY’RE RAELGZEALIZING THIS
HISTORIC MOMENT.
HISTORIC MOMENT. >> SO TAKE US THROUGH YOUR
POINT, THERE ARE ALL OF THESE
DIPLOMATS.
DIPLOMATS. SOME OF THEM ARE JUST CAREER
PEOPLE, WHICH MEANS WE EXPECT
THEM TO DO THEIR LEVEL BEST.
SOME OF THEM, LIKE MR. SONDLAND
HAS A DIPLOMATIC JOB, LIKE
AMBASSADOR, BUT YOU’RE SAYING
HE’S A TRUMP GUY AND HE’S
TURNING?
TURNING? >> WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT SONDLAND
IS HE MADE A VERY GENEROUS
CONTRIBUTION TO TRUMP’S
INAUGURAL FUND.
INAUGURAL FUND. I BELIEVE IT WAS A $1 MILLION
DONATION.
DONATION. AND HE’S SOMEONE WHO CAME INTO
THE STATE DEPARTMENT WITHOUT
FOREIGN POLICY EXPERIENCE.
THE FACT THAT HE, TO AN EXTENT,
IS PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE
ADMINISTRATION’S DIRECTION IN
ORDER, ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTS,
AND BASED ON WHAT, YOU KNOW,
MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THINK RIGHT
NOW, IN ORDER TO TESTIFY AS PART
OF THIS INQUIRY INDICATES THAT
FOR HIM, IN THIS MOMENT, BEING
ON THE RECORD, EVEN IF IT’S
BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO THESE
IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATORS, IS
MORE IMPORTANT THAN STAYING IN
PRESIDENT TRUMP’S GOOD GRACES.
AND THAT’S PART OF THIS SHIFT
THAT A LOT OF THESE FOLKS ARE
HAVING, WHERE THEY HAVE TO THINK
ABOUT WHAT IS LIFE AFTER TRUMP
GOING TO BE LIKE, AND WHETHER
THEY LIKE IT OR NOT, WHAT IS
HISTORY’S VIEW OF THEM GOING TO
BE?
BE? >> WELL, AND THAT’S A HIGH-LEVEL
STATEMENT YOU’RE MAKING, BUT I
DON’T THINK YOU’RE BEING AT ALL
DRAMATIC, MAYA.
DRAMATIC, MAYA. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO,
AGAIN, TAKE A STEP BACK, AND NOT
PRE-JUDGING WHAT WE’LL LEARN
FROM THE PROBE.
SOME OF THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO
LIKE THE FOLKS YOU’VE WORKED
WITH AT THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT,
GIVE YEARS OR DECADES TO PUBLIC
SERVICE.
SERVICE. THEY ARE NOT THE ONES JUMPING IN
FRONT OF TV CAMERAS, THEY’RE NOT
THE ONES GIVING THE FIRST
STATEMENT.
STATEMENT. I HAVE MENTIONED ON THIS SHOW
BEFORE, OUR REVIEW OF A LOT OF
THESE FOLKS IS, THEY ERR ON THE
SIDE OF CAUTION, NOT TESTIFYING
IF THEY CAN HONOR A LEGITIMATE
REQUEST.
REQUEST. BUT SOME OF THEM ARE SAYING,
THESE AREN’T LEGITIMATE
REQUESTS, THERE IS A CRIME FRAUD
EXCEPTION IN MOST OF THE
PRIVILEGE ISSUES.
PRIVILEGE ISSUES. AND IT’S TIME TO GO INTO
CONGRESS, EVEN IF IT MEANS THEY
MIGHT NOT GET ANOTHER TERM IN
ANY REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION,
EVEN A QUOTE/UNQUOTE MORE
TRADITIONAL ONE.
TRADITIONAL ONE. >> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THERE COMES A TIME IN
EVERY PUBLIC SERVANT’S CAREER
WHERE THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE
BETWEEN THE LAW AND THE
CONSTITUTION AND WHAT THEY TOOK
THE JOB TO DO EVERSUS CURRYING
POLITICAL FAVOR.
POLITICAL FAVOR. AND FOR MOST OF THEM, IT SOUNDS
LIKE, AND THIS WAS TRUE FOR
FIONA HILL AS WELL, THAT THEY
DID THE BEST THEY COULD WITH
WHAT THE JOB WAS AND WHAT THE
CIRCUMSTANCES WERE.
CIRCUMSTANCES WERE. WERE SERIOUSLY TROUBLED BY IT,
AS WE KNOW FROM THE
WHISTLE-BLOWER, WENT THROUGH THE
PROPER CHANNELS TO LODGE AND
REGISTER THOSE CONCERNS.
THEY DIDN’T GO OUTSIDE OF
CHANNELS.
CHANNELS. >> THEY DIDN’T LEAK, TO YOUR
POINT.
POINT. >> THEY DIDN’T LEAK, THEY DID
WHAT WAS OBLIGATED OF THEM TO
DO.
DO. AND, YOU KNOW, PART OF THE
PROBLEM HERE IS PUBLIC SERVANTS
SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED FOR DOING
WHAT THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO DO,
WHICH IS SERVE THE PUBLIC
INTEREST.
INTEREST. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, MATT,
TAKE A LISTEN TO JOE BIDEN, WHO
FIGURES INTO THIS IN MORE THAN
ONE WAY, AS WE ALL KNOW, TALKING
ABOUT WHAT HE VIEWS AS A THUG
OPERATION.
OPERATION. >> RUDY GIULIANI, THE PRESIDENT,
AND HIS THUGS HAVE ALREADY
PROVEN THAT THEY, IN FACT, ARE
FLAT LYING.
FLAT LYING. WHAT WE HAVE TO DO NOW IS FOCUS
ON DONALD TRUMP.
I’VE RELEASED 21 YEARS OF MY TAX
RETURNS.
RETURNS. EVEN RICHARD NIXON RELEASED HIS
TAX RETURNS.
TAX RETURNS. MR. PRESIDENT, RELEASE YOUR TAX
RETURNS OR SHUT UP.
>> MATT?
>> MATT? >> I THINK THE FORMER VICE
PRESIDENT IS GETTING AT TWO VERY
IMPORTANT POINTS THERE.
ONE IS THE REALLY -- THE WORD HE
USED IS "THUG," THUGGISH WAY
THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS RUN THE
GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO TAKE EVERY
INSTRUMENT OF GOVERNMENT POWER
AND USE IT NOT TO SERVE
AMERICA’S BEST INTERESTS, BUT
HIS OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL
INTERESTS, SOMETHING WE’VE NOT
SEEN FROM A PRESIDENT REALLY
SINCE RICHARD NIXON, AT LEAST IN
THIS SCOPE.
THIS SCOPE. AND THE SECOND IS JUST THE
BLATANT HYPOCRISY COMING FROM
THE WHITE HOUSE, WHERE YOU HEAR
THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU KNOW,
ACCUSING THE FORMER VICE
PRESIDENT OF BEING CORRUPT.
ACCUSING HIS SON OF TRYING TO
PROFIT FROM THE -- FROM THE FACT
THAT HIS -- THAT HIS DAD WAS THE
VICE PRESIDENT.
VICE PRESIDENT. WHEN YOU HAVE TRUMP PERSONALLY
PROFITING FROM HIS TIME IN
OFFICE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HE
HASN’T DIVESTED HIS OWN INTEREST
AND HIS SON IS GOING AROUND AND
SIGNING DEALS IN FOREIGN
COUNTRIES AFTER THE PRESIDENT
SAYING HE WOULDN’T DO THAT AS
LONG AS HE WAS PRESIDENT.
SO I THINK YOU SEE THE VICE
PRESIDENT MAKING TWO OF THOSE
VERY IMPORTANT POINTS AND I
THINK HE’S RIGHT TO DO THAT.
>> BETSY AND MAYA, WITH THE
LITTLE TIME WE HAVE LEFT, I
WOULD LIKE BOTH OF YOU TO SPEAK
TO, WHAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT
REMAINING QUESTIONS FOR THESE
WITNESSES.
WITNESSES. BECAUSE BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, IT’S
THANKSGIVING, AND THE CONGRESS
HAS TO DECIDE WHEN IT CAN, IF IT
WANTS TO BE LEGITIMATE AND FAIR,
THAT THEY HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE
THAT THEY’RE EITHER GOING TO GO
OR NOT GO WHEN IT COMES TO
ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.
FIRST TO BETSY.
>> ONE REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION
IS WHETHER THE STATE DEPARTMENT
ISSUED ANY THREATS TO CURRENT
STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS ABOUT
WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD FACE
REPERCUSSION IFSS IF THEY TESTIF
OF COURSE, WE DON’T KNOW THAT
THAT HAPPENED.
THAT HAPPENED. BUT IF IT DID AND ANY OF THESE
FOLKS HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT LOSING
ANY OF THEIR PENSIONS OR
SALARIES, THAT WOULD BE REALLY
SIGNIFICANT.
SIGNIFICANT. THAT’S SOMETHING I EXPECT
INVESTIGATORS TO BE ASKING AND
TO KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR.
>> AND I THINK THE QUESTION OF,
WHAT DID TRUMP KNOW?
WHAT CONVERSATIONS, IF ANY, ARE
PEOPLE AWARE THAT HAPPENED WITH
DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF.
I THINK THERE REALLY IS ENOUGH
ALREADY THAT CONGRESS COULD VOTE
ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT TODAY.
BUT THAT QUESTION IS AN
IMPORTANT ONE FOR THE AMERICAN
PUBLIC.
PUBLIC. >> IT’S REALLY STRIKING, BECAUSE
IT HAS COME SO FAST AND THERE’S
SO MUCH GOING ON, PERHAPS A
THING WE SAY A LOT AROUND HERE,
BUT IT IS VERY UNUSUAL TO HAVE
THIS MANY SENIOR PEOPLE,
ADVISERS TO THE PRESIDENT,
DIPLOMATS, AND THE NATIONAL
SECURITY ADVISER, AT LEAST
ACCORDING TO OTHER PEOPLE’S
QUOTING OF HIM, ALL WEIGHING IN
IN SHORT ORDER ABOUT THIS PLOT.
BETSY WOODRUFF, MAYA MILLER,