Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Sadhguru, we're here in Davos,
on the banks of the beautiful, stunning, scenic Davos lake.
But my thoughts go to the spiritual health of the country at this time.
I want to ask you, as one of India's leading spiritual leaders,
what's your sense of the overall spiritual health of our country at this time?
Sadhguru: (Laughs) Spiritual health!
See, the strength of this nation has always been… the USP of this nation has always been -
we have been a land of seekers.
But today, not just today, in the last couple of hundred years or three – four hundred years,
slowly it has moved this way that
because of strong religious manifestations, everybody is trying to be… belonging to some religion.
This is a nation where nobody belonged to any religion at one time - everybody's a seeker.
In the same house, all kinds of practices will happen,
different kinds of do…Gods will exist in the same house, at different times in their life they changed their gods -
everything was allowed because people were in pursuit.
They are seekers; they are not believers.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Mhmm (Indicating agreement)…
Sadhguru: Slowly belief system is taking over, but that doesn't mean it is happening in,
you know, really across the board.
Spiritual process is also on like never before.
Today, across the globe, we are touching over one billion people - just me;
there are so many other people who are doing similar things.
One billion people are… are watching our videos - at least minimum three videos,
one billion people plus have watched.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You know, I asked you this question Sadhguru,
in the context of the student protest that we're seeing,
and I was very intrigued by the position that you’d taken on the Citizenship Amendment Act (Sadhguru laughs),
where you came in and said that a lot of these protests were misdirected.
Why do you feel this way, Sadhguru?
Sadhguru: I'm not saying mis… Have you read the Citizenships Act?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): I have read… Sadhguru: You have read.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Yes.
Sadhguru: Tell me, against whom is it?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Well, it’s…
Sadhguru: Is it targeted against somebody?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): It's against the idea of India which says that we look at all religions as being equal.
Sadhguru: No, no.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): And if we look at persecution, we should ideally,
look at persecution regardless of which religion the persecuted person belongs to.
Don’t you agree, Sadhguru?
Sadhguru: See, we're talking about minority persecution…
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Correct!
Sadhguru: …not religious persecution, in a adjacent country, not in our country.
This has got nothing to do with the Constitution of India as it applies to Indians.
This has got something to do with people who are left behind during the partition time.
They stayed back thinking they can live well there also.
Nobody really understood these two nations will become so separate,
nobody understood what this line is.
So, those people who got stuck there and they've been persecuted - for them,
who are already here for ten – fifteen years, and they don't have anything - they don't have an identity –
you’re just trying to give them an identity, you’re not welcoming new people.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You spoke of…
Sadhguru: No, no, no. I want you to take this. You have read the Act?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Yes.
Sadhguru: Tell me, is it against any Indian citizen?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): No, but here's the point. You spoke of belief…
Sadhguru: Please tell me that “No” properly.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Yes, I'll explain.
Should it not be about minority persecution regardless of religion?
Why should it be that if you’re Hindu, if you're Sikh, if you’re Christian
and persecuted you're welcome to India…
Sadhguru: No, no, no, please.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): …but if you’re Muslim, then you're not?
Sadhguru: No, no. See, this is a…
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): And especially from a spiritual guru like you!
Sadhguru: No, no. This is a completely wrong way you are looking at it.
You want controversy right now on your camera - that's all I see!
Okay, please don't do this because this is about the nation.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Yes.
Sadhguru: Right now, this is… minority persecution means religious minority because they’ve…
they are theocratic states.
They are not secular nations; they are theocratic states, and there is a certain level of persecution for all of them.
So all those who are persecuted - a one-time - it's a one-time pardon, okay, because they're already here.
After 2014 you cannot come; they're already here.
Now what you're saying is, “Why can't everybody come?”
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Those who are persecute… Sadhguru: No, no.
Are you short of population in the country?
Are you short of population in our country?
We don't need anybody – Hindu, Sikh, Christian - nobody we need to have,
but they are already here with us without an identity.
That is all, it is about!
So, if you want to make a issue out of it, because you like a controversy, you can make it,
but I'm just honestly saying, as far as I can see, it doesn't affect any Indian citizen.
But I'm seeing on the television cameras -
this poor Muslim woman - a young woman in her twenties - with a child,
some TV anchor shoves the microphone and asks, “What is this?”
She's saying, “We are all Bharatvasis.
Just because we are Muslims why our citizenship is being taken away?”
But the anchor doesn't make any effort to correct her and say, “This is not true. Your citizenship will not go.”
He doesn't say that, he just enjoys the controversy. Why are you guys doing this?
Is it true - that young Muslim woman will lose their citizenship?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): No, of course not!
Sadhguru: Then why are we doing this?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): But what do you make of the fear?
There is a sense of palpable fear.
You’re seeing what’s happening at Shaheen Bagh.
Sadhguru: See, the failure…
That is because of the kind of things that have been communicated.
Government has definitely failed in its ability to communicate the idea, okay.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Mhmm (Indicating agreement)…
Sadhguru: What is simply for somebody else, nothing to do with you - you're protesting thinking it's against you.
But somebody obviously communicated it this way, right?
And you are also trying to say the same thing now.
Don’t say this!
This is not about Hindu, Muslim; this is about the nation.
This is not at all about Hindu - Muslim because it is not concerned with the Hindus in the country,
or Muslims in the country.
This is about people who are already in the country from another nation without any identity.
You’re just trying to give them one-time identity.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You spoke of how the government failed in its communication.
Where do you think the erred? How should this matter have been handled?
Sadhguru: Probably, such a benign issue - they never thought this will be organized this way.
It is definitely a lapse, no question about it.
It is a failure unfortunately.
Right now, Indian states are here - Karnataka is here and
Madhya Pradesh is here seeking investments and stuff.
Tell me, right now, if you want India's economy to explode into growth,
the most important thing is external investments.
We are looking at two-trillion-dollar investments.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Mhmm (Indicating agreement)…
Sadhguru: Who will invest their money in a place where buses are burning on the street?
All of you guys just enjoyed this, unfortunately. Please don't do this.
Buses are burning on the street.
First of all buses don't belong to the government, buses belong to us.
Why are you burning it? It's our money!
And who will come and invest in our nation when buses are burning?
Why don't you tell the people clearly, “This is not about you, this is about somebody else”?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): So, why do you think these students are protesting?
One is, you spoke about the Muslims protesting –
there’re lots of young students from IIT, IIM - all kinds of colleges and universities…
Sadhguru: Initially it happened. I don't think they're continuing to protest because I think they all realized.
Some are protesting about fee hikes, some are protesting against police atrocity, whatever,
whatever - those are different issues. I don't want to get into all that.
These are law and order issues.
Don't make it into a national issue - it is not!
Local issues - local sub inspectors and DSPs should handle.
For everything, you want to make a national kind of a crisis. It is not!
But people are hurt.
Some people are feeling insecure.
Please reassure them – “There is no danger to your citizenship.”
It's very, very important.
Indian citizen – whatever, whatever religion you have, or you have no religion like me
- all of us are safe, because this is not about…
CAA (Citizenship Amendment Act) is not about us.
It's about a few people who have come from outside and living in our country without any human identity.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): What's the way to heal? What's the path to…
Sadhguru: Please, all of you - media - should speak!
I'm asking, why is this anchor pushing the microphone in her face?
And when she fears and she's crying…
See, it’s genuine - her fear is genuine!
That young Muslim woman is genuinely crying out of fear
that, “My citizenship will be taken away, there's a law like that”.
Why can't you say that's not true?
You won't say that, because you want the drama to go on. Why?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Would you say there's a need for greater communication as well…
Sadhguru: Definitely!
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): …there’re protestors sitting at Shaheen Bagh - members of government,
ruling party to go out, speak to them, assuage their feelings and concerns?
Sadhguru: Definitely whatever needs to be done has to be done
to tell the citizens of India irrespective of what you've…
What I practice is not government's business first of all.
See, when it comes to communication of an idea,
when wrong communication happens by vested interests,
whoever did that - I don't want to go into the detail -
isn't it the responsibility of every citizen, particularly media, that “This is not true.”
Has any media come out clearly and said, “This is not true. Don't get excited about this?”
No!
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Do you think that a lot of the apprehensions
were also created because senior ministers initially linked the NRC and the CAA?
Sadhguru: Possible!
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Therefore, you know, a lot of this is not necessarily media creation.
Sadhguru: That is true.
There's so many different comments in Parliament – statements on...
Sadhguru: I agree. I agree with that. I agree with that.
Some, some people gloated about it – “How we're going to hit you with this,”
because even they did not understand what the policy is about, what the law is about.
So some people gloated about it, some people misused it - all this has happened.
But let's understand, we as a nation, we still have four hundred million people who’ve not eaten properly.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Correct!
Sadhguru: What is our responsibility for them?
We need investments to grow.
You will not get any investment from anywhere when you show pictures of burning buses on the streets.
I don't want to invest my money in a place where things burn. Who wants to do it?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You've been here at Davos.
What’s the buzz that you picked up about India - these burning buses, social unrest?
Has that been because we spoke to Kamalnath…
Sadhguru: Everybody is excited about India's possibilities.
At the same time this question has come up to me again and again – “What about the civil unrest?”
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): People are asking you about this?
Sadhguru: Yes, yes!
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): What are they asking you, Sadhguru?
Sadhguru: The same thing! “Is it really in control?
Is Narendra Modi’s government in control of what's happening in the country?”
I said, “It very much is!
Because they are young people, they don't want to deal with them harshly. Things are happening - whatever.”
I am not…
I'm not a spokesperson of the government, but I'm definitely speaking for the nation.
I'm saying, if there is something we disagree, there are places to debate.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Mhmm (Indicating agreement)…
Sadhguru: There is a parliament to do that.
If parliament is not good enough,
we can set up various debates - media platforms are waiting for debate always.
Debates are possible.
Why burn the buses and create this visual which completely puts the country backwards
in a negative picture?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Do you believe it's a bit of a wasted opportunity
at a time when four-hundred million people still don't have food to go into their mouths,
this whole focus on very divisive issues - is that in some senses a wasted opportunity?
Sadhguru: No. How… One way of looking at this is…
See, there are contentious issues in the country.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Sir!
Sadhguru: If you don't have the courage to deal with them, then you cannot make the economy grow.
So putting them aside quickly and focusing on economy is a wise thing for any government to do.
But people should also understand and participate.
We must understand, right now India's only and only focus should be…
It doesn't matter who's in the government.
Whoever people elect will be in the government.
People think, “I'm supporting one party.” This is going on all over the social media.
No, I'm working with AIADMK in Tamil Nadu, I was working very closely with Chandrababu Naidu,
I was working in…
I'm working in Telangana with… very closely with the governments,
I’m working with Kerala with the communist government.
My thing is I value democracy.
If people elect - whoever they elect - I'm willing to work with them.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You know, you…
Sadhguru: You elect somebody; within eight months, you say, “I want a change.” What is that?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You make this point,
so I'm very curious to know your view on the current dispensation, because
when you made those comments and see,
a lot of people came out - and you would have seen this Sadhguru - and they labeled you a Modi bhakt.
They said, “Yeah, he’s Modi’s fan – Modi bhakt!”
Sadhguru: See…
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): “He's a spiritual guru, but see what positions he’s…”
Sadhguru: (Laughs) See, I'm telling you this.
Now I'm asking you this question once again - is it genuine, that this CIA…
CAA (Citizenship Amendment Act) is aimed against a particular community? Is it so?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Well, it excludes members of one community from seeking citizenship in India,
if they are persecuted in their own countries.
Sadhguru: Arey! Not true!
Anybody can seek citizenship in India;
only thing is, people who are already here - en bloc certain people are coming in;
rest can come through normal process.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): But, Sir, I come from a Sikh family.
In our Gurudwaras, you come in and you eat lungar, no matter who you are,
we don't check whether you're Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian.
Sadhguru: Rahul, let's talk practical things.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Sir!
Sadhguru: We have just partitioned about 72 years ago.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Mhmm (Indicating agreement)…
Sadhguru: Hmm, on what basis?
Unfortunately, on religious basis! It should not have happened.
We did it for whatever reasons - at that time that was our wisdom.
Today, people who are left behind who thought they will be okay that side and now they're not okay -
not okay means, as I pointed out in my video, marriage was not legal - Hindu marriage was not legal till 2017.
Now the people who are talking about this is – “Oh, till 2017, they corrected it.”
What about 1948 to 2017? Your marriage is not legal. Do you know what that means?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): No, but what's your counter on Ahmadiyyas, Hazaras
who are persecuted minorities in their countries,
but persecuted nonetheless because of their faith and belief?
Sadhguru: See, do you have enough population in your country?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Sure, of course!
Sadhguru: More than enough?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Yes!
Sadhguru: Or too much?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Yes.
Sadhguru: You have too much population?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): We have enough.
Sadhguru: So do you want to have 50% of Pakistan
back in the country because economically they're not doing well?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): A small minority…
Sadhguru: No, no, because economic minorities will come.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Okay.
Sadhguru: We cannot welcome; we cannot afford to.
We cannot afford to bring anybody, even if they're Hindu you can't afford to bring them.
We are only talking about - this law is only talking about those who are already inside.
What do you want to do? Where do you throw them?
You…
They won't take it back… take them back, nor do… these people can go back -
they have nothing left there. What will you do with them?
What kind of logic is this?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You spoke about too many people already?
Does that indicate that you would strongly back a population control law? Is that something…
Sadhguru: One hundred percent.
I am the only one for the last twenty-five years talking about it and being popular with every religion.
Hindu, Muslim, Christian, everybody hates me, because I'm saying first control your populations,
because we are too many people for the land that we have.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): It should be hum do, humare do seal that.
Sadhguru: See you cannot…
In a democratic country you cannot control forcefully, but by incentives you can control.
You can incentivize those who consciously decide certain things, incentivization has to be there.
Otherwise, it will… nature will take care of you.
See, if you don't do it consciously, nature will do it in a very cruel way.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): So, you sidestepped my question on responding to critics
who were labeling you a Modi bhakt.
Sadhguru: See there are… See you are a journalist.
Your name is on?
All right, your face is on, your name is on.
There are a whole lot of them who are anonymous journalists, they can say whatever they want to say.
See if I say something, if there is a lacuna in what I have said, please point it out to me.
You talk about my mother, my wife, you're not only a illiterate, you're also uncivilized.
That's all I can see (Laughs).
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): As we come to the end of this interview…
Sadhguru: No, I’m asking what kind of people will attack the woman in your home?
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): It's not fair. It's not fair. It's not right.
Sadhguru: Because you’re uncivilized. That's all it is. What is there to say about that.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): They can have a view on the positions you are taking
but to attack somebody's family member is totally not right.
Sadhguru: That’s all that's happening.
Has anybody pointed out what's wrong with what I have said?
Has anybody done it? Can you do it to me?
No.
Because there's nothing wrong, you just don't like it.
You don't like me? It's your problem.
What can I do (Laughs)?
You’re just soaking your own bile, I don't. I'm fine.
You can say whatever you want.
I am in a place where nobody's opinion does anything to me,
and never ever I’ve identified with any political ideology or party.
My only thing is if people choose somebody, I support them for five years.
After that, if they choose somebody else, I'll support them for the next five years,
because I value democracy.
If you think democracy is nothing, your opinion is everything, I'm sorry I'm not with you.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Sadhguru as we come to the end of this interview, you know,
which is just a beautiful setting here along the Davos lake.
I want to get you to tell all those who are watching a bit about the mindfulness retreat,
the sessions that you are doing over here in these very, very stressful times.
What’s your…
Sadhguru: These are not stressful times (Laughs).
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): For everyone, in different ways.
Sadhguru: No.
No, times are not stressful, individual people can be stressful if they wish to be.
I am not stressful.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Okay, so what's your message for the youth in terms of keeping their sanity,
the heads on their shoulders, and not getting swayed by all the busy around.
Sadhguru: See we need to understand this -
If you want to create a quality society, a quality nation and a quality world society,
the most important thing is you create quality human beings.
If you don't do any work on quality human beings, and then you think they'll be a fantastic world,
those who talk about your mother and wife for every small thing,
how do you create a quality world with these people?
And fortunately, they are minority. Okay?
If that becomes majority, you will have to leave this world.
Fortunately they are minority.
Here, I'm saying in the economic forum, in a business place, they're dedicating half-a-day for a retreat. Okay?
This is because they understand without creating quality human beings, there is no quality world.
A good human being is a good world.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): You've spoken as you always do from the heart,
we leave it to those who are watching to decide what they think of this (Sadhguru laughs)
Sadhguru for joining us. Thank you so much.
Sadhguru: Thank you.
Interviewer (Rahul Kanwal): Thank you. Thank you.