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>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY, WELCOME BACK!
TO "THE LATE SHOW."
FOLKS, JOINING ME NOW FROM UKRAINE, PLEASE WELCOME CNN
CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CLARRISA WARD.
CLARISSA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU.
>> Stephen: IN THE U.N.
YESTERDAY, THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA WERE AT LOG LOGGERHEADS.
THE U.S. SAYS THE UKRAINE IS-- IS AN URGENT AND DANGEROUS
SITUATION IN DANGER OF RUSSIA INVADING.
THE RUSSIANS SAY THAT THE UNITED STATES IS EXAGGERATING.
YOU'VE TALKED TO THE UKRAINE YABS.
HOW ARE THEY FEEL ABOUT ALL OF THIS?
>> IT'S REALLY EXTRAORDINARY, BECAUSE YOU WOULD EXPECT THERE
TO BE AN ALL-OUT PANIC, RIGHT.
ANY OTHER COUNTRY, THERE ARE 120,000 TROOPS ON YOUR BORDER.
THERE IS A BUILD-UP OF MILITARY HARDWARE.
YOU'VE GOT RUSSIAN SHIPS ALSO DOWN IN THE SOUTH.
YOU'D THINK THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE REALLY FREAKED OUT.
BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING IN UKRAINE IS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
LIVING WITH THE THREAT OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION FOR EIGHT
YEARS.
AND THEY LIVED THROUGH A COUPLE OF YEARS OF A PRETTY VICIOUS
FIGHTING BETWEEN UKRAINIAN FORCES AND PRO-RUSSIAN
SEPARATISTS.
WAR HAS KIND OF BECOME THE FABRIC OF LIFE HERE.
AND AS A RESULT, I THINK THAT UNTIL THERE ARE ACTUALLY BOMBS
FALLING OR SHOTS BEING FIRED, PEOPLE DON'T PAY AS MUCH
ATTENTION TO THE RHETORIC COMING FROM EITHER SIDE.
SO, LIKE, THE THING THAT PEOPLE WOULD TELL ME A LOT IS, "WE
DON'T LISTEN TO POLITICS.
WE DON'T WORRY ABOUT POLITICS."
UNTIL THINGS ACTUALLY START HAPPENING, THIS IS ALL IN THE
REALM OF POLITICS FOR THEM.
AND UKRAINIAN LEADERS ARE REALLY TRYING, ALSO, TO KEEP PEOPLE
CALM.
AND THAT'S WHY YOU SEE THEM COMING OUT AND REALLY, FOR THE
FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE SEEN, DISAGREEING WITH AMERICA AND
SAYING, "WE DON'T THINK AN ALL-OUT INVASION IS POSSIBLE.
WE WANT EVERYBODY TO STAY CALM."
>> Stephen: I WAS SAYING BEFORE THE CRISIS IS A
SELF-GENERATED ONE BY RUSSIA.
WHAT DOES HE NEED TO ACUATE THIS INTO AN INVASION?
HE'S GOT THE TROOPS THERE.
WHAT NEED TO HAPPEN FOR HIM TO JUSTIFY THE ACTION THAT'S MOST
FEARED?
THE TANKS.
>> SO I THINK THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT
SORT OF U.S. INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT, IS THAT HE WOULD STAGE SOME KIND OF A FALSE FLAG
OPERATION, BY WHICH I MEAN, IN SOME SORT OF PRO-RUSSIAN
SEPARATIST AREA-- WHERE, BY THE WAY, THEY HAVE BEEN HANDING OUT
RUSSIAN PASSPORTS LIKE CANDY FOR THE PAST YEARS," HE WOULD SAY
THERE'S BEEN AN ATTACK ON UKRAINIAN FORCES.
THESE ARE RUSSIAN CITIZENS.
WE MUST GO IN TO PROTECT THEM, RIGHT.
AND THAT GIVES HIM THE SORT OF FIG LEAF OR PRETEXT OF SAYING,
"I HAVE AN OBLIGATION.
THESE PEOPLE HAVE RUSSIAN PASSPORTS.
THEY'RE RUSSIAN CITIZENS.
WE NEED TO OFFER THEM DEFENSES."
AND THEN BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, YOU'VE GOT RUSSIAN TANKS ROLLING
ACROSS THAT BORDER INTO DETERIORATE THAT, YOU KNOW, IT
MAY BE UNDER THE CONTROL OF PRO-RUSSIAN SEPARATISTS, BUT
THIS IS STILL PART OF UKRAINE, WHICH IS A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.
AND IT STILL WOULD CONSTITUTE, YOU KNOW, A REALLY BIG DEAL,
EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT AN ALL-OUT INVASION.
>> Stephen: DO THE UKRAINIANS HAVE THE SAME SORT OF NATIONAL
IDENTITY THAT AMERICANS DO?
BECAUSE WE REALLY THINK OF OURSELVES AS AMERICANS FIRST, NO
MATTER WHAT OUR ETHNICITY IS, AND THAT WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE
COMING INTO OUR COUNTRY WITHOUT PERMISSION.
WE HAVE A WALL-- THEY NEED A WALL.
WOULD THEY LIKE A WALL?
BECAUSE WE HAVE A WALL WE'RE NOT GOING TO USE TO THE SOUTHERN
BORDER ( LAUGHS )
>> THERE ARE PLENTY WHO WOULD LIKE A WALL.
UKRAINIANS DEFINITELY HAVE A STRONG SENSE OF NATIONAL
IDENTITY, BUT IT SHIFTS A LITTLE BIT AS YOU MOVE THROUGHOUT THE
COUNTRY.
WHEN YOU GO TO THE FAR WEST OF THE COUNTRY, BORDERING POLAND,
YOU SEE MUCH MORE UKRAINIANS WHO REALLY WANT TO ENGAGE WITH THE
EUROPEAN UNION AND WITH THE WEST AND WITH NATO.
WHEN YOU MOVE TO THE FURTHER PARTS OF THE EAST, YOU SEE A LOT
OF PEOPLE WHERE RUSSIAN IS THEIR FIRST LANGUAGE.
THEY HAVE FAMILY IN RUSSIA.
WE INTERVIEWED A UKRAINIAN SOLDIER ON THE FRONT LINES
TODAY, HE IS A UKRAINIAN SOLDIER FIGHTING FOR HIS COUNTRY, BUT HE
DID NOT WANT TO GIVE HIS NAME ON CAMERA, BECAUSE HIS FAMILY IS IN
DONBAS, AND THAT'S SEPARATIST REGION.
AND I HOPE THAT HELPS PEOPLE UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT, THIS IS
COMPLEX.
THIS IS NUANCED.
RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, ESPECIALLY ALONG THE BORDERS, HAVE A LONG
HISTORY, THEY'RE INTERMINGLED IN TERMS OF FAMILY, IN TERMS OF THE
LANGUAGE, IN TERMS OF THE HISTORY, IN TERMS OF THE
CULTURE.
SO IT'S NOT A CLEAR-CUT ISSUE OF JUST, YOU KNOW, UKRAINIANS HATE
RUSSIA, AND RUSSIA IS THE ENEMY.
FOR MANY UKRAINIANS, OF COURSE, RUSSIA IS THE ENEMY.
BUT FOR MANY OTHERS, THEY ARE ALSO VERY ENMESHED IN RUSSIAN
LIFE.
>> Stephen: I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT THE SOVIET
UNIWOULD COMMONLY TRY TO TEST NEW PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED
STATES BY CREATING A CRISIS, A FOREIGN POLICY CRISE EARLY IN
THAT PRESIDENT'S TERM, TO SEE WHAT KIND OF MAN THEY WERE
DEALING WITH?
COULD THIS BE PART OF THE IT, TOO, RATTLING THE CAGE TO SEE
THE RESPONSE FROM THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION.
>> I THINK PRESIDENT PUTIN IS ALWAYS TRYING TO PUSH BUTONS
LIKE, ESPECIALLY WITH EACH PRESIDENT, TO SEE WHO THEY ARE
AND WHAT THEY STAND FOR.
AND I THINK MAYBE-- AND IT'S SPECULATION-- PRESIDENT PUTIN
SEES PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SEES HOW MUCH BIDEN AND HIS
ADMINISTRATION HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT CHINA.
"WE WANT TO FOCUS ON CHINA.
THIS IS THE BIG CHALLENGE.
THIS IS THE BIG THREAT.
THIS IS THE BIG COMPETITOR."
SO PERHAPS HE'S TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT MOMENT AND
BOTH KIND OF REESTABLISH HIMSELF AS BEING A MAJOR PLAYER OF, YOU
KNOW, MAJOR INTERNATIONAL CONSEQUENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE,
BUT ALSO HOPEFULLY TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE FACT THAT MAYBE
PRESIDENT BIDEN DOESN'T WANT TO BE AS FOCUSED ON RUSSIA, THAT HE
WOULD PREFER TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, CHINA BE THE NUMBER ONE THING ON
HIS AGENDA.
BUT WITH ALL OF THESE THINGS, STEPHEN-- AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T
KNOW IF YOU FOUND THIS, BUT, LIKE, AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU
ALWAYSEND UP COMING BACK TO THE SAME THING, WHICH IS WHAT IS
PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN THINKING RIGHT NOW?
>> >> Stephen: IS THIS SO
IMPORTANT TO HIM?
WHY IS UKRAINE SO IMPORTANT TO HIM?
>> WELL, IF YOU'VE HAD THE LUXURY OF READING-- HE WROTE A
LETTER ABOUT THIS LAST SUMMER.
IT'S EXCEPTIONALLY LONG AND EXCEPTIONAL DETAILED.
IT'S, LIKE, YOU KNOW, A HISTORICAL TOME.
HE VIEWS UKRAINE AND RUSSIA AS BEING SORT OF SPIRITUALLY AND
RELIGIOUSLY AND LINGUISTICALLY AND HISTORICALLY AND CULTURALLY
KIND OF ONE AND THE SAME, BONDED TOGETHER.
, YOU KNOW, WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION
AND HE DESCRIBES IT AS ONE OF THE GREATEST CATASTROPHES, HE'S
TALKING IN NO SMALL PART ABOUT UKRAINE AND THAT DEEP, DEEP THAT
HE BELIEVES EXISTS THERE.
SO WHEN HE SEES UKRAINIANS TURNING TOWARDS THE TEST AND
OUSTING THE PRESIDENT WHO WAS HERE BEFORE, YA, IN OKOVICH, WHO
WAS THE KREMLIN'S MAN AND HAVING A REVOLUTION AND WANTING TO BE
PART OF NATO, THAT'S ANATHEMA TO EVERYTHING HE STANDS FOR.
IT FEEDS INTO THIS IDEA WHICH IS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, A MANTRA OF
HIS, WHICH IS NATO ENCIRCLEMENT.
THE WEST IS TRYING TO CASTRATE RUSSIA, TO WEAKEN RUSSIA, TO
ENCIRCLE US AND PUT THEIR WEAPONS THERE AND THEIR FORCES
THERE.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HE REALLY WILL GO TO GREAT, GREAT
LENGTHS TO PREVENT.
>> Stephen: WELL, CLARISSA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US
THE PERSPECTIVE RIGHT THERE IN UKRAINE.
CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CLARISSA WARD,
EVERYBODY.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH FAITH HILL.
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