I love truth is stranger than fiction
stories and you know I had never heard
of JT Leroy in 2006 when when the
scandal broke at the time it was being
called you know the biggest literary
hoax of our time hey I'm Ben Shapiro and
welcome to the vise talks film today I'm
joined by Jeff fears aghh
a documentary director who explores
lives of outsider artists through films
like the devil and Daniel Johnston and
most recently authored the JT Leroy
story which is one of the more
perplexing and morally ambiguous
documentaries I've seen in a long time
JT Leroy is a 21 year old writer with
two books of fiction based on his
experiences as the son of a truckstop
prostitute hat I'm JT jeremiah
terminator
Laroy there's not a lot of discovery in
publishing William Burroughs janae allen
ginsberg
to hear a new voice was exciting he
doesn't like to show his face to the
press JT I just thank you from the
bottom of my heart
some people think that JT Leroy might
not really exist my name's Laura Albert
and I am the writer je t lo voy
I felt like a misfit I didn't want to
write as myself JT Leroy was created
from my dream blond-haired blue-eyed boy
turning tricks living on the street the
books were taking off j2 had to walk
amongst us Savannah was over at my house
and I said you look like JT Leroy you're
where the sunglass is a blonde wig it
was like Frankenstein let there be life
JT Leroy is a literary kid boy Tory are
alive it was a revolving door of
celebrities Missy bono giving JT
industry advice suddenly JT is a go-to
person for the fashion world I showed
just enough to make them interested
the media was tugging pretty hard at the
curtain it turns out he may not be at
heat and may not even exist people are
calling me I don't know if the thing is
bad or not what the heck is going on I
really need to talk to you I didn't know
how to shut it down it feels like the
whole world is watching I'm not filming
am I suddenly I got a call
Warren paid off from an air time he says
I'm gonna get you he knows everything
there is a huge tornado that's about to
hit
Jeff thank you so much for being here
thanks for having me
I wanted to start with more than
anything just a compliment I think that
you're making hands-down some of the
best portrait documentaries and I think
my hunch is that that's because the
subjects that you're choosing Daniel
Johnson now JT Leroy are intensely
personal to you for people who aren't
aware can you tell us what that story is
but who is JT Leroy JT Leroy during you
know the late 90s and 2000's was a young
boy from the hills of Wild West Virginia
who was a lot lizard a truckstop
prostitute the boy was dressed up as a
girl and had a mom named Sarah who was
also a truck stop lot lizard prostitute
and he was writing transgressive fiction
you know really raw vivid
autobiographical it was said to be but
fiction and these two books that JT
Leroy published Sarah and the hardest
deceitful above all things they became
international bestsellers they were very
well reviewed and in 2006 the New York
Times pulled down the curtain on Jake
Taylor Ryan it turned out JT Leroy in
fact did not exist it was a Laura Albert
the the author of the fiction on and off
the page when he first became aware of
it what made you say I want to cover
that I had never heard of JT Leroy in
2006 when when the scandal broke um I
had not read the books but a friend of
mine a journalist turned me onto the
story a few years later so I I read
there was many many articles a lot of
ink was generated on on the scandal when
it broke and I just had this feeling
that there was so much more to the story
than we were being told so I reached out
to the author Laura Albert and I sent
her my film the devil Daniel Johnston
and you know for people who haven't seen
that film it deals very vividly with the
intersection of madness and creativity
and she watched the devil
and it it really spoke to her and that's
the reason she chose to share her story
with me when you read trade - Leroy is
writing for the first time how did it
strike you I read Sarah the novel first
I read it on a plane in one sitting it
was very entertaining I loved it and it
was like you know I thought this is a
great a great novel and then it didn't
surprise me that it was so well reviewed
when it was published and then I read
the hardest deceitful above all things
which is a collection of short stories
much more brutal but absolutely you know
great writing and I knew Laura Albert
was hiding in plain sight so within the
fiction that she wrote she had left
clues and I found those clues and it was
very much like when I was a young boy uh
finding the the Beatles clues of a paul
is dead like i'll never forget the
experience of playing strawberry fields
forever and in the playout groove you
hear I buried Paul and you're just like
wow that's what happened when I was
reading these books Laura Albert had
left clues that she was you know she
wanted to tell she had a secret but she
wasn't ready when when JT Leroy was
published and the great reviews and the
aqil aids came in it was a rare
zeitgeist moment in in literature in
publishing history because this was
really hardcore transgressive fiction
this was not JK Rowling this was not
Harry Potter yet you had lines around
the block for four readings at
bookstores a clubs
um you don't I go to readings I friends
you write books I mean you're lucky to
have fifteen people there so something
just clicked um with a the writing on
the page and B the persona of JT Leroy
it resonated and spoke to too many
people and that's perhaps why I cross
over into music into Hollywood into
literature publishing um fashion um I
don't think we've seen that before this
was not Oprah's Book Club I don't know
what it was it was just the right thing
at the right time but you know where
does anyone come from you know I mean
people always start you've never heard
of them in the next day you have and
then it gets passed around and there was
a word of mouth and there was buzz and
someone else passes a buck on to you and
you read it and the next thing you know
you're wearing a raccoon penis bomb yeah
I couldn't stop him to start and even
explained the raccoon penis film cuz
that to me was it was a real like that
is it said in the film it's an
incredible piece of marketing
well what one of the symbols in the book
Sara of course was the raccoon penis
bone now the raccoon penis bone you know
I'd never heard that raccoons had you
know out of all mammals the largest
proportional penis size to their body I
did not know this but I guess Laura
Albert did and down south they're
collected as a good luck charm uh
truckers wear them around their necks if
you put under your pillow it'll bring
you good luck it'll also perhaps make
you better in bed and that's in the
story so I thought it was brilliant and
other people clearly did as well when I
guess she must have bought from from
some guy you know hundreds and hundreds
of them and autograph them and then of
course at the readings they would be at
the merch table and I don't think there
was a celebrity during that era that
wasn't photographed wearing a raccoon
penis bone just going back a little bit
to Dana Johnson as well it seems like
you're drawn to these characters that
struggle with mental illness that are
intensely creative but intensely
troubled what is it the draws you that
people like this well I mean I think
there's two things I absolutely find the
intersection of madness and creativity
you know infinitely fascinating it's
just how it is um I also love underdogs
and I think those are the stories that
suck us in and I think there's so much
to learn about humanity inside those
stories and inside those minds so you're
saying that Laura Albert is an underdog
I mean she the books were so successful
she was discredited but I feel like she
made the statement that she was going
out to make oh well once again JT
laroy's books were bestsellers there was
no such thing as Laura Albert Laura
Albert is the textbook definition of an
underdog because of what had happened in
her childhood
because unfortunately she was sexually
abused at a very young age that
manifested into you know an eating
disorder body issues as well as you know
a hotline telephone addiction as herself
she's an underdog she said this was one
of the most difficult films that I've
ever made why well I mean this film is
the most complicated story I've ever
taken on because well this there's two
stories going on at one it's like the
main story of the saga of JT Leroy
you've got Laura Alberta's herself she's
also Jeremiah Terminator Laroy on the
phone
Savannah her sister playing JT Leroy in
public Laura is also playing the British
handler speedy and then she's created
two other characters her boyfriend /
husband Jeff canoe Pisaster and her son
is Thor so already it's a it's a pretty
large cast dominated mostly by one
person so that alone you know is it is
it is a very complicated through line
but it also raises questions least for
me about about the authority that your
storyteller has over your own narrative
I was impressed and surprised with the
creative choice of giving Laura Albert
such a place from which to narrate the
film I mean it's one thing for her to be
a character but she seems like she could
be a kind of unreliable narrator from
the action from the actions that she's
taken and from what she's saying do you
consider her a reliable narrator well
it's interesting before she steps into
the chair and sits down for this 8-day
interview you could absolutely say that
she would be a textbook definition of an
unreliable narrator it's just a fact
because of so much deceit that had taken
place and in literature as well as
cinema
you know the unreliable narrator is held
in a very very high regard but what was
interesting in my experience when making
the film was that when she did come
because remember this was her choice to
come and share she took me through you
know every beat of her life soups in US
as well as the saga of JT Leroy which is
just
you know filled with massive amounts of
deceit but I found that she shared
everything you know 100% honestly she
was very very forthcoming about her life
her backstory and all the deceit so
therefore is she an unreliable narrator
is the question you just asked me and
that's for you to decide uh you know I
found her to be 100% forthcoming when
the Jay Taylor a scandal broke in 2006
it broke amidst a completely different
media climate than the one that we have
today do you think that if this story
happened in the last few years it would
have happened in the same way or is it
even possible for adapt and today I
think it's possible through the internet
because I keep hearing stories that it
happened it can't happen yet but in a
different way the JT Leroy story really
took place in many ways over the phone
for many many years where you don't
visually meet or see a person Laura
Albert was you know hiding in her
bathroom talking as JT Leroy on the
phone and I think the phone allowed that
and then when the internet it finally
came and dominated our lives and young
people are now telling me this um you're
getting these stories where people can
have you know a better self a different
self another identity perhaps I think
the Internet has changed the culture I'm
not sure if the reaction when people are
ultimately found out is any different
that Jeff it's a real honor to meet you
I'm such a fan thank you so much for
talking to me today thanks Benny I
totally appreciate it yeah man thanks
again thank you cool