so just look around you now and what is your experience let me ask you it in a different
way in order to guide the conversation a bit look around you now do you experience anything
of a world other than the experience of seeing you're seeing and touching seeing and touching
and hearing no yet we think that we see a world and that the experience of seeing takes place
here but the seen world takes place there but can you find these two things in your experience one
the experience of seeing and two the object seen no I have no access to it other than through the
experiencing when you say I have no access to it other than experiencing or seeing you're implying
that it's there exactly but that you don't have access to it right how do you know it's there
the only thing I keep coming back to when I try really try as hard as I can to examine this is
all my experience and senses working together so for example I don't know that something's
three dimensional unless I've touched it so its sight and touch and perhaps sound
as well working together it seems to be all all about what you're saying it cause the experience
of seeing hearing and touching all give me consistent reports therefore what they are
reporting must be independent of seeing touching and hearing they all seem to confirm that the
outside world because the evidence from each of these three sources corroborate one another yes
and you interpret the evidence as evidence of an outside world you do not only say not only
is seeing hearing and touching consistent not only do they give me information about
a consistent world moreover there are 75 other people that report evidence that is consistent
with my experience therefore we must all be experiencing the same world but why couldn't
you take the same evidence and use it to support a completely different model of experience which
is this that each of our 75 finite minds and by finite minds I mean a mixture in this context of
seeing hearing and touching let's just call that all the finite mind each of our seventy
five five nine minds is precipitated from within the same field of consciousness and it is because
each of our minds is precipitated or downloaded from the same field of consciousness that they
experience the same world in other words each of our minds is informed by the same source
of information and because they all come from the same source they all give evidence of the
same world judge just like if six different people are watching the nine o'clock news
they all see the same thing why because the program is downloaded from the same source
I can I can see this other possibility that you present and work with it sometimes but it still
doesn't somehow get me to that place where there is no world there well show us the world that
you're referring to that you're so convinced show it to us now point to it I would I mean
I know this is you're gonna pull this apart but it feels like this this okay is feeling yeah in
this case yeah feeling yeah is that right feeling and seeing feeling and seeing let's take feeling
first where does the experience of feeling take place with within my awareness within awareness
okay so the experience of feeling right there it's obvious that feeling doesn't give us an
evidence of the outside world because you say it takes place in awareness where does the experience
of seeing take place this theme so go back to the outside world show us the outside world
that you're talking about point to it or point to this is exactly areas that you're having that
seems to give you evidence of an outside world this is my dilemma I know it is that's why I'm
asking you the question so okay so so I hear what you're saying I can't argue with you but
nevertheless my every fiber of my years of experience doesn't seem convinced yeah it's
just cold years of conditioning you're right every fiber of your many years of conditioning
is at odds with what is being suggested here your experience is not a dodds with me what is
being suggested here your experience I'm just describing your experience for you right but
it is in conflict with your conditioning and that is the problem yes so when I'm asking is then how
does that get now you have to make the choice am I going to believe my experience or am I going to
leave my conditioning I mean your conditioning is the conditioning of Western culture yes look at
Western culture I mean it is it is it so highly sophisticated and intelligent I mean why do you
believe what Western culture tells you about your experience I mean look around at our culture is
it so intelligent if if a being from another culture was to land in the United States would
they look around and think wow these people are really smart they they they live such harmonious
loving beautiful lives they're all so kind to one another when they treat their environment
and their animals so nicely I mean is that what they would think no I'm certainly not going
to defend Western culture but but but but your dilemma is whether to believe the conditioning
that you have received at the hands of Western culture or whether to believe your experience
that's that's where it's at for you so today when you said awareness where we were I believe that
you were just saying talking about awareness it's not something and it's not nothing I hadn't heard
you say that before well that was because I was I was trying in this very minut way to to completely
dissolve in a very in a very detailed way but in a very experiential way our our conviction that
there is something other than consciousness so we think there things we think there is something and
in reference to that belief we conceptualize awareness as nothing mm-hmm so we think there
are things called objects that is subtle things thoughts and feelings or material things bodies
and objects and then as opposed to that we think there is we conceptualize consciousness has been
not a thing empty void yes and then we end up with statements such as form is emptiness and
emptiness is form which is a legitimate statement but it's basically saying nothing is something
and something is nothing it's but these ideas are based that they are said in response to the belief
that there are things so the teaching makes a concession to that belief and says okay you think
there are things that that which is aware of these things is not itself a thing so it postulates
awareness as nothing empty or void so we now have emptiness and form nothing and something which is
a legitimate distinction to make as a concession to the belief there are things but having made
this distinction between emptiness and form between nothing and something we then have to
and what this is what we were doing this morning we were really exploring not intellectually
although it was spoken in intellectual terms but the exploration itself was very experiential I
was trying to guide you on an actual exploration of the relationship between things and nothing
between something and nothing and hence we explored how is it possible for something to arise
out of nothing how it is how is it is it possible for something to disappear into nothing how is it
possible for nothing to become something we were exploring this in our experience to see that
that's actually not how it happened nothing cannot become something yes something cannot disappear
into nothing therefore the reality of experience is neither something nor nothing if we think it's
something then it's legitimate as a halfway stage to say reality is nothing not a thing but then
that's a halfway stage we then have to go beyond that and say reality is neither something nor
nothing and as I said this morning the mind can't go further than that because the mind thinks in
terms of opposites something and nothing well you see that helps me a lot because because it my mind
actually seems much happier in that that non-dual that non-dual place or that non-binary place and
where it's kind of liminal zone i guess between no something or something I don't even know how
to I can't put it in words because the words are binary but but that that it's it's like a
you talk about precipitation it's like just before the precipitate shows itself I'm thinking
of something condensing out of a liquid do you know what I mean it's like that right on the
edge and it to me that's I guess I do have been thinking awareness is emptiness nothing so if
it's got that no not something not nothing that it feels much more spacious to me even to call
it awareness is to call it awareness as opposed to an object the only reason it is necessary to
conceptualize awareness is in response to our prior conceptualization of the object okay if
we conceptualized objects then we can concern realize the awareness that is aware of that so
all of these teachings arise in response to our beliefs and feelings if we didn't conceptualize
objects in the first place it wouldn't be necessary to conceptualize awareness so all
the teaching arises as a response to beliefs ideas feelings situations and it's legitimate
for the teaching to make these these provisional statements awareness is empty etc emptiness is
form because they're all true relative to the belief that they are responding to but in the
absence of a question or a situation there is no teaching it because ultimately it's not possible
to conceptualize reality which is why I said earlier shanku quoted the shank area saying
real thinkers don't think in other words people that have really taken thought all the way the
thought comes naturally to an end because reality cannot be conceptualized or named that is the the
ending of thought thought has brought itself to its own end it's not a disciplined end it's a
natural end thought has it's like a candle or all that all the wax has been burnt there's no
more fuel the flame just comes to an end there's nothing else left to burn there's nothing else
left to think about us or thoughts just comes to an end so when you talk about conceptualizing
objects the alternative is pure experiencing no it's necessary to conceptualize objects it is
the natural state otherwise we would just remain like animals or infants there would be just be a
undifferentiated mass of experiencing it is necessary to separate oneself out and arrive
at the I am the body experience that is we're in objects here we're separating out experience it
is a necessary stage the ego is is is a natural stage that we pass through but what is natural
is to carry on passing through that stage and arrive at the recognition of our true nature
right so would that be pure experiencing that's pure awareness pure awareness pure
experiencing is what the fish and the bird and the newborn infant experience oh okay and what
Finn is experiencing now Finn doesn't know that he is a dog that he is lying in a room
for Finn that as far as we know forgive me Finn for talking on the other hand
as far as we know Finn's experience is one undifferentiated mass of experience that is
not separated out into me a dog and everyone and everything else in other words he doesn't Finn
doesn't have an ego it hasn't developed he hasn't developed the I am the body experience he is in a
pre egoic condition there is only experience okay and that is not the same as the one who
has recognized the nature of all experience to be infinite consciousness although in both
cases in Finn's case there is just experience in the case of the one who has recognized the
true nature of experience there is just consciousness in both cases there there's
only one thing so that so they say Shh there are some similarities between the pre egoic
condition and the post egoic condition which is why it's sometimes said that the sages childlike
right right I was confused on your use of the words so if for now I understand or work with
pure consciousness of pure awareness as not something not nothing is that
appropriate reason still no but what once your conceptualizing awareness then you're in the
realm of conceptualization that's fine and it's best to say that awareness is not a thing it is
nothing it's not possible try now to think of something that is neither something or
nothing you can't it's not possible no I think what I like about that is it reads
a little room for something sorry it leaves a little room for something it leaves the room
for something yes I think that's why that attracts me yes as long as you're thinking
about awareness you're thinking of something and it's best to think that awareness is not a thing
if your conceptualising awareness you are already we are already in duality we are
ready it's and from that point it's best to recognize that awareness is nothing not a
thing nor thing not a thought not a feeling not a sensation or a perception thank you