Hello everyone, my name is Umu, and welcome to my interview with the brilliant songwriters Ellen Berg and Cazzi Opeia.
They top line together as a duo called Sunshine. And just in case you aren't familiar with their full discography,
they've written for so many different
amazing artists. For example, recently they co-composed BTS' 'Bulletproof: the Eternal', they've written for
GWSN, for HYO,
for ITZY, for Red Velvet,
TXT. And then seperately, Cazzi has written for Sulli, for SHINee, for NCT....
Ellen has written for Jessica, for Taeyeon, for Jonghyun and Mamamoo. They've just, combined,
they have such a jaw-dropping discography. So today I'm so excited to delve into
their brains a bit and see what their songwriting process is like so hello, Sunshine.
Thank you so much for doing this interview with us. We are so excited to talk to you
You are brilliant top liners, and I have so many questions. A lot of questions from fans who are like, "Oh, my God,
they produce so many bops! We're so excited to see them on your channel!" Ellen: Should I start? Yeah I'll start. Cassi: Do you want to start?
Ellen: Yeah, I grew up with, my parents are musicians,
so I just had music everywhere, all around me, all the time.
My dad is a jazz drummer and my mom is a classical
vocalist. So, yeah, and then I studied music for many years
and then the latest school I went to was production and songwriting school in Sweden and after that,
I got an internship
at a Swedish publisher and moved to Stockholm, and that's basically when I started to write pop music, more in the commercial business.
That's, yeah. And your name is Ellen Berg. Ellen: And my name is Ellen Berg. Cazzziopeia: Well, my name is Moa,
aka Cazzi Opeia.
Everybody calls me Cazzi around here, but my birth name is actually Moa.
But Cazzi Opeia is my artist name, as Ellen. I'm also raised with musicians in the family, and I'm an artist as well.
So, I've been doing that for like ten years, working with my music and being on tour and stuff. And then three years ago,
I felt that I wanted to start to write to others--to other artists, as well. So that's how it all started with my songwriting
career. Ellen: And we actually met at a camp. Was that
maybe... Cazzi: Three years ago. Ellen: Three years ago. Cazzi: A little bit more than three years ago.
Ellen: And then we just got in a session,
we didn't know each other, and that's when you were actually working on your artist project then. Cazzi: Yeah.
Ellen: So we wrote a song for your artist project. Cazzi: For my artist project, yeah. Ellen: And then we just clicked. Cazzi: And that session,
I'll never forget it, it was so special and we kinda
looked at each other and were like, ah, okay. We were like,
it's a good match.
Umu: When do you think was the moment in your life when you decided to go down for producing for others instead of being...
Like I know, Cazzi, you release your own solo stuff, but maybe instead of being like an instrumentalist, like your family.
What made you decide to produce and sing? Ellen: For me, was that I always felt like an urge to
to create and write songs more than
like, practice piano .
So I just wanted to, because I've always learned everything, all the instruments by ear
anyway, so I wasn't really into the like of music theory of stuff, but I wanted to create and I wanted to express myself.
So that was just, it came natural for me to do that.
So, I've just tried to find my way so I that I could make pop music, basically, because I love that.
Cazzi: I always loved writing songs ever since I, I think I was 10 or 11 years old when I wrote my first song. Ellen: Yeah. Same here.
Cazzi: And... Ellen: What was your...Do you remember? Cazzi: Yeah. Ellen: What was it called?
It was called, the thing is, I did two songs. One is in Swedish, called 'Kanske.'(?)
Ellen: 'Maybe'. Cazzi: Yeah, 'Maybe'. And the other one was in English and it was called 'Angel'.
Mine was called 'All My Life'.
'All my Life'. Cazzi: (singing) All my life... Ellen: and that one was with my friend.
Cazzi: Was it that one? No, I'm joking! Ellen: No, it wasn't that one. That would have been...
Cazzi: Oh, no, but so it's just been around all the time and it's been my passion. So I just like kept on doing it and
ended up here. Umu: And so, moving on to my next question,
so for those in our audience who might not know, what are your role as songwriters?
Are you producers? Top liners? And what is the definition of what you do?
Cazzi: We're Sunshine! Ellen: We're Sunshine. Cazzi: We're a duo, making top line, making melodies and lyrics, and finding concepts, and
working with lots of amazing producers.
Ellen: Yeah. We usually record our vocals by ourselves. Cazzi: Yeah. Ellen: So we're vocal producers.
But we we don't really produce the tracks themselves, only
the vocal arrangements. Cazzi: We let the producer make the beats and the instrumental.
Umu: The beeps and boops. Ellen: Exactly. Umu: And I haven't seen too many top liners pair up.
What made you guys decide to team up and work together?
Cazzi: Yeah, but it's just like, I felt like we were
complementing each other Ellen: Yeah, definitely. Cazzi: in a really cool way, and we have in our in our like
set of mind to write one song each day. Together, we can just write, like we could write more songs each day
if we... Ellen: Wanted to. Yeah. Cazzi: Because
everything we do together is so fast. Ellen: I can hear Moa / Cazzi singing something and I can be like, that's good,
Cazzi: Yeah. Ellen: Let's just keep that and keep working on that. Cazzi: Snap up that
Ellen: So we really try to listen to each other all the time. Cazzi: Yeah. Ellen: And then you just find the best
melodies that will work.
Umu: Can you walk me through a
process of creating a song together? Is it, you take turns singing, or one of you does the melody and the other one says, oh,
we should add some harmonies here? How does that work?
Ellen: We try to, the first time, if we get a track,
we just put out our phones and record on voice memo, and then just...
Often, the first ideas that come up
Ellen: we tend to use a lot, because that's like... Cazzi: Usually, the first idea is the best. Ellen: It's the best.
Cazzi: Like melody.
Ellen: And then when we've worked out the melodies, you often just do like a rough sketch,
and then we start with the lyrics.
So we kind of want the melodies first,
then the concept. And it can be different, like mostly we are in this room and we get tracks from
from our colleagues and
sometimes in a session, maybe one of us have a hook already. Ellen: Yeah.
Cazzi: That's something that's in our, like for us daily,
that comes, hooks like... Ellen: From nowhere, you just get the ideas. Cazzi: From nowhere when you're
at the mall or sitting on the toilet or whatever. Umu: Yeah. Cazzi: And then you always take a phone and you're like (singing). Ellen: You're just about to tall asleep. Very annoying. Yeah.
Ellen: And you just have to take out the cell phone. Cazzi: Just to save them, you know? Because you don't want to like, you don't want ???????
So sometimes we come come into a session with a hook and then we play the hook for the
producers and then they kind of put the beat on so it can go both ways. Ellen: Yeah.
That's what makes it so fun. Ellen: But then when we start to record
we just maybe do a lead
Cazzi: Yeah. Ellen: And then we just put on
doubles and harmonies wherever we think it well suits the song. Umu; Gotcha.
Cazzi: Yeah. Umu: Yeah, speaking of just like sitting on the toilet and coming up with something and having to record it,
do you guys when like, singing gibberish words,
do those made-up words ever make it into the final song? Like Milkshake's (singing)
Cazzi: Yeah. Definitely, yeah. Ellen: Yeah, yeah. They do. Umu: What are some song examples?
Cazzi: 'Power Up'. Ellen: Yeah, 'Power Up', when there is the banana.
Umu: Uh-huh. Both: (singing)
Ellen: Cuz, like bananas kind of a weird word, to just sing but we decided that because we wanted the melody to go
(singing) Umu: *dies*
Ellen: I love that you're so excited! That's amazing!
Did you see the dinosaur?
Cazzi: That was hilarious! She just disappeared. Where did she go?
Imagine what a little banana I can do!
Umu: Did you just like look at a banana and you were just like, "Oh, this could be a hook in a song."?
Cazzi: Kind of.... Ellen: No, because we just said that maybe nanana is boring, maybe lalala
is boring, but banana kind of sings good, and it's (singing)
Cazzi: And we were like, let's go for banana. It sounds cool. It's nice to,
we like how we sang it, and then they kept it. Ellen: Yeah. Umu: Yeah.
Umu: That's so fun. And while we're on the topic of summer songs, I have a question for you Cazzi:
Cazzi: Okay. Umu: So 'Blue Lemonade' really does recreate the feeling of sipping a blue lemonade like while I was listening to it
I was like oh, my God,
I can actually picture myself
drinking a blue lemonade. Cazzi: Yeah. Umu: What elements of the melody did you make sure to write to create that summer vibe or that
Feeling of sipping a cool drink in the summer? Cazzi: I mean, I just heard the track and
the melodies came kind of like, I just wanted that,
you know, kind of like Spice Girls
vibe, and I was actually writing about Pop-Tarts.
Umu: Oh! Cazzi: Yeah, cuz I really like Pop-Tarts, so
originally the song was about Pop-Tarts
and all the different flavors. Ellen: Sweet tooth, you've got a sweet tooth. Cazzi: Sweet tooth...Oh, I've got a sweet tooth. Ellen: Yeah, you do.
Cazzi: No, but you know, like
strawberries, blueberries and stuff like that, and then then they changed it to blue lemonade.
But it was about flavors originally as well, and for me, it's about Pop-Tarts.
Umu: Yeah, is that where the pop pop pop came from, and that's what they kept? Cazzi: Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Umu: That's so cool.
How in the process did they change it from Pop-Tarts to blue lemonade? Was it after you guys
gave the demo to SM, and then they're like... Cazzi: I think, yeah.
Because we always have a lyricist that
translates the lyrics from English to Korean,
and sometimes the lyricists like change it up a bit.
Usually they keep our key words,
English keywords, but sometimes they change it,
and in this case they did. I didn't mind at all though, because blue lemonade, is really like,
yes, you say you're sipping on the like,
in the summer summer night, so I was really happy about the result.
Umu: Were there any other songs that you guys wrote to have a very specific
concept, and then it was completely changed when it was translated to Korean? Ellen: 'Break Your Rules'
was 'You Snooze, You Lose', Cazzi: Oh, yeah. Ellen: So they changed that.
Cazzi: Cuz that day when we wrote that song, someone was late, I think, to the session,
Ellen: Yeah. and I don't remember who it was, and then when that person came into the session we were like, well,
and then he or she said "So what's up? What you been doing?", and we were like,
well, you snooze you lose, and they were like, "That's a cool title!". And then we just kept on building on that. Umu: Yeah.
So sometimes that's the process as well,
we just like have a talk in the beginning of the day
and then you start talking about a subject or you know, something Ellen: What happened, yeah.
Cazzi: You have in mind, and then kind of that ends up being the song title. Umu: Uh-huh.
Umu: Was that how 'Psycho' was created, Cazzi, was someone driving you crazy? Cazzi: It was exactly like that with 'Psycho' actually.
It was me, Drew, and
EJAE. We were on a camp at SM in Korea,
and we started the day talking about,
someone was like heartbroken, and then we took a lot of time talking about that,
and then someone said like, yeah,
being heartbroken is almost like like feeling psycho or something, something like that, and that set the mood for the whole
day, and we just stayed in that feeling and
tried to sing it in a beautiful melody way, which I think we succeeded with. It's a really, really good song.
So that was straight from the heart, that song. Umu: After you discovered the concept for the song, did you guys decide
oh, we don't want it to represent this stereotype of what a psycho is, we want to make it beautiful?
Cazzi: Yeah, that's what we were aiming for
with the psycho title, sing about that, but in like a really beautiful
melody.
Ellen: The contrast. Cazzi: Yeah, the contrast, thank you, the contrast of that.
Umu: And while we're on the topic of 'Psycho', when I tweeted out that I was interviewing you guys
everyone wanted me to talk about the pre-chorus of psycho with you.
Cazzi: (singing)
Ellen: That's so Cazzi. It's so Cazzi.
Umu: That's so beautiful. Cazzi: Yeah. Umu: Because the bass line in the pre-chorus is so low and smooth, and yet you just went, whish! You went up.
Cazzi: Yeah. Umu: That just came to you, or you're like you know, what, Cazzi: Yeah.
Umu: I know that whoever's gonna sing this has the range...?
Cazzi: No, that kind of just came, uh,
I was vibing to the chords that Drew played, (singing)
and he was like, oh my God, that was so cool!
Can you sing that in the mic? And then we just put words on it, and then they became that pre-chorus.
It's so much about like the vibe you have during that day for any song.
Ellen: You just have to let go.
Cazzi: Yeah. Just, and not be afraid in a session to
to say what you have in mind, because you never know,
maybe someone hears it and they're oh, but you need to twist it there, and that's the complete hook, you know?
It's all about teamwork, and it's a beautiful way of working.
Umu: Mm-hmm, I agree. Okay, we're gonna retrace our steps a little bit and go back to talking about summer songs.
So, you know, you've written 'Power Up' and 'Dance the Night Away' and so many other songs that you just...the perfect summer songs.
So I was wondering what musical elements or melodies or sounds do you think make a perfect summer song?
Ellen: It just needs to be really happy, and often also if you,
considering like, you want it to be up-tempo. But I mean, at summer you wanna be free, you wanna
Cazzi: Fresh. Ellen: be like, yeah, all those key words.
Cazzi: Yeah.
Ellen: Just happy, summery vibe. How do you feel when you... Cazzi: Wake up and it's sunny, Ellen: Yeah. Cazzi: and you look out the window and it's a summer day, and
it's just...
Ellen: It makes you feel good, right?
Umu: Yeah. Ellen: So you want to have like one of those kind of vibes to put in the song. Cazzi: And there's nothing better than the feeling of
hearing a song that just makes,
I mean, you can wake up one day and you feel shitty, and it's just like everything is just , ugh, you know,
and then one song can just turn that mood around.
And that feeling, and I mean that's so cool what music can do to you, and that's kind of what we want to
Ellen: Yeah. Cazzi: Bring out to the world and our happy songs as well. Like, just get back up on your feet. Ellen: Yeah, you can...exactly. Turn it around. Turn it around. Cazzi: You know, just
make people happy. Umu: Right. It made me curious; is that why you guys include a lot of up-talk?
Like (cheering), like cheering, and like, yeah! And like, woo!
Like "woos" in your music? Cazzi: Definitely, yeah. Ellen: Yeah. Yeah.
Umu: Yeah.
And I've noticed some of that, like even though you do use a lot of up-talk in your songs for Twice, Red Velvet, and ITZY,
you can tell that they're three totally different groups with extremely amazing,
distinct, and recognizable sounds. How do you approach writing for all the groups to make sure that, you know,
the songs very much belong to them?
Ellen: We often,
we get leads sometimes, so we get like
sometimes the labels have
like a picture on what they are looking for with a song and what the next step is for that act, so
they can give you some references, Cazzi: Instructions. Ellen: instructions, or just like, this song needs to be
up-tempo or we want a ballad now, or whatever.
So... Cazzi: But sometimes you obviously have to listen to what these artists recently released, you know,
just to get to know the artists. Ellen: yeah. Cazzi: I mean, all the
bands have different styles, I would say, even if it's like K-pop, it's different. They they have a different sound.
And sometimes you have to think about what member, like for example, do they rap?
Does someone sing really high, or
Ellen: Yeah, you can really play around with that when you're writing for K-pop. Cazzi: Because each and every member is like a character.
Ellen: They need their time to shine. Cazzi: Yeah, we have to bear in mind and think about all the members
so all the members can shine and
have their, show their special...
Ellen: So we get to play a lot of theater.
Ellen: Yeah. Cazzi: Just like act. Umu: So when you record the demo, do you ever change your voice to sound like the artist?
Cazzi: Definitely, I do. Umu: Can you please do an example? Umu: Please, please, please! Cazzi: Oh, my God!
No, that's so like
in the moment, though,
but definitely, and sometimes when we write for a
boy band and you're gonna make a rap, and you have to sing like this, you know?
When you go home that night, you feel your throat's like aughhh!
Cuz you need to put so much energy and character on. Ellen: And it can also just be like super cute, and like so happy.
And then to another song, like
(singing).
Umu: That's so much fun. Cazzi: Yeah, it is really, really a fun process.
Cazzi: (singing)