>>> AS WE CONTINUE OUR COVERAGE
OF THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF
UKRAINE, IT IS 45 PAST THE HOUR.
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK FROM
THE RIGHT, PARTICULARLY THE
TRUMP WING, ABOUT HOW DONALD
TRUMP WAS SO TOUGH ON RUSSIA AND
THAT RUSSIA DIDN'T INVADE
UKRAINE WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT.
BUT ON "MEET THE PRESS"
YESTERDAY FORMER PRESIDENT
TRUMP'S CHIEF ADVISOR ON RUSSIA,
FIONA HILL, EXPLAINED WHY IT IS
WHAT TRUMP SAID ON THAT PERFECT
PHONE CALL WITH PRESIDENT
ZELENSKYY THAT MATTERS SO MUCH.
TAKE A LOOK.
>> WELL, CERTAINLY THERE WAS AN
AWFUL LOT DONE BY THE
ADMINISTRATION, ALSO BEEN
CONGRESS AND BY AMBASSADOR
HAILEY HERSELF AT THE UNITED
NATIONS.
BUT I THINK THERE'S ONE POINT
THAT SUMS EVERYTHING UP THAT YOU
YOURSELF TOUCHED ON, IS THAT
PRESIDENT TRUMP AT A PRETTY
CRITICAL PERIOD WITHHELD
MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE
THAT WAS DESPERATE FOR IT AT
THAT PARTICULAR JUNCTURE,
BASICALLY TO GET VOLODYMYR
ZELENSKYY TO DO HIM A PERSONAL
FAVOR.
>> WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND TO
PUTIN?
>> THAT SENDS A MESSAGE TO PUTIN
THAT UKRAINE IS A PLAY THING AND
THAT NOBODY IS REALLY SERIOUS
ABOUT PROTECTING UKRAINE.
IT WAS ULTIMATELY A SIGN OF
WEAKNESS.
IT IS OUR POLITICAL DIVISIONS,
OUR PARTY'S INFIGHTING WHICH WAS
ON FULL DISPLAY THERE, THAT
PUTIN IS QUITE SHOCKED NOW WE
HAVE SOME COLLECTIVE ACTION
TOGETHER.
>> MAUREEN DOWD'S LATEST PIECE
FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" BREAKS
IT DOWN.
IT IS ENTITLED "ZELENSKYY AND
TRUMP, TWO PERFORMERS, ONE
HERO."
SHE WRITES IN PART, QUOTE,
DONALD TRUMP AND VOLODYMYR
ZELENSKYY BOTH PLAYED LEADERS ON
TV SHOWS AND THEN BECAME LEADERS
IN REAL LIFE.
BUT AFTER THEY ASCENDED TO POWER
THEY TOOK VOE DIFFERENT ROLES.
TRUMP BECAME A BLACK GUARD.
ZELENSKYY DONNED A WHITE HAT.
TRUMP TRIED TO OVERTURN AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY.
ZELENSKYY TRIED TO SAVE
UKRAINIAN DEMOCRACY.
TRUMP IN A NIMBUS OF SELFISHNESS
AND NARCISSIM, INVERTED REVERED
AMERICAN IDEALS.
HE SOILED THE IMAGE OF HIS
COUNTRY AND RESHAPED IT AROUND
HIS GRIEVANCES AND INADEQUACIES.
ZELENSKYY STOOD UP FOR UKRAINE
IDEALS.
HE HELPED IMBUE HIS COUNTRY WITH
A SHINING, RESILIENT IMAGE,
REINFORCED WHEN THE WORLD SAW
REMARKABLE IMAGES OF
BATTLE-READY MOTHERS AND
GRANNIES MAKING MOLOTOV
COCKTAILS.
BY STANDING UP TO THE EVIL
EMPIRE, ZELENSKYY COULD EARN
COMPARISONS TO ANOTHER PERFORMER
TURN POL, AND THAT SHOULD GRATE
ON TRUMP AS MUCH AS HAVING HIS
VICE PRESIDENT TURN ON HIM.
RONALD REAGAN HELPED LIFT THE
IRON CURTAIN.
ZELENSKYY IS TRYING HIS BEST TO
STOP IT FROM SLAMMING DOWN
AGAIN.
LET'S BRING IN EDITOR OF "THE
NEW YORKER" DAVID REMNICK AND
SENIOR FELLOW FOR STRATEGY AND
SECURITY, EMMA ASHFORD.
SHE IS A NONRESIDENT FELLOW AT
THE MODERN WAR INSTITUTE AT WEST
POINT.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU ALL WITH US
THIS MORNING.
>> SO, DAVID, I WANTED TO GO
BACK TO SOMETHING THAT FIONA
HILL SAID, AND THAT IS VLADIMIR
PUTIN'S MISCALCULATION FROM
PAYING TOO MUCH ATTENTION TO
DONALD TRUMP AND THE TRUMP
YEARS.
THIS WEEKEND ONE OF MY CHILDREN
SAID THEY HAD NEVER REALLY SEEN
WHAT THEY'RE SEEING NOW IN
CLASS, AND THAT IS WHERE PEOPLE
ON BOTH SIDES OF THE I I DON'T
LOGICAL DIVIDE, THEY'RE NO
LONGER DEBATING IN SOCIAL
STUDIES TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
VIEWS OF THE WORD.
SHE SAID PEOPLE ARE ALL TELLING
THE STORIES THEY'RE PICKING UP
FROM UKRAINIAN SOCIAL MEDIA.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
SUNFLOWER SEED STORY, THEY'RE
TALKING ABOUT THE ADS.
IT IS REALLY AN EXTRAORDINARY
MOMENT AND ONE THAT VLADIMIR
PUTIN AND, QUITE FRANKLY, A LOT
OF AMERICANS PROBABLY COULD NOT
HAVE FORESEEN, A UNIFIED AMERICA
AND A UNIFIED NATO.
>> WELL, UP TO A POINT.
>> UP TO A POINT, RIGHT.
>> BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP, DONALD
TRUMP DOESN'T SEEM PART OF THAT
UNITY.
YOU KNOW, FOR YEARS, INFORMATION
YEARS WE HAVE BEEN QUOTING
DONALD TRUMP ON HIMSELF, HOW HE
COULD SHOOT SOMEBODY ON FIFTH
AVENUE AND HE WOULD STILL
SURVIVE HE COULD SHOOT
SOMEBODY ON 5th AVENUE AND STILL SURVIVE POLITICALLY.
SURVIVE POLITICALLY.
IS SEEMS TO ME AXIOMATIC, BY
MAKING UKRAINE A PLAY THING, A
SOURCE OF A BRIBE TO ENHANCE HIS
POLITICAL CAREER AND NOW CALLING
PUTIN A GENIUS AND SHOWING GREAT
ADMIRATION AND THEN TRYING TO
WALK THAT BACK AND HAVING A WAR
WITH CHINA AND RUSSIA.
IF THIS DOESN'T PROVE HIM TO BE
A FOOL AND SOMEBODY WHO IS
INCREDIBLY MALEVOLENT ABOUT THE
INTERESTS OF HIS OWN COUNTRY AND
THE INTERESTS OF A COUNTRY
TRYING TO WARD OFF AN INVASION,
IF THAT DOESN'T END DONALD
TRUMP'S POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS TO
RUN AGAIN IN 2024 THEN WE AS
AMERICA ARE TRULY LOST, TREULE
LOST. YOU CAN'T COMPARE HIS BEHAVIOR,
YOU CAN'T COMPARE HIS BEHAVIOR, HIS FOOLISHNESS, HIS IDIOCY AND
HIS FOOLISHNESS, HIS IDIOCY AND MA
MALEVENCE TO ANYONE.
>>.
>> BASICALLY TALKING ABOUT AN
UNBROKEN LINE IN HISTORY FROM
CZARS TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.
PERHAPS AMERICANS SHOULDN'T BE
QUITE SO SHOCKED.
AS A MAN WHO HAS DEDICATED SO
MUCH OF YOUR LIFE TO STUDYING
RUSSIA AND RUSSIAN LEADERS, ARE
WE SEEING SOMETHING NEW WITH
VLADIMIR PUTIN, SOMETHING
UNIQUELY MEDDLESOME OR IS THIS
JUST A CONTINUATION?
>> I DON'T SEE IT AS A BROKEN
LINE.
IT WOULD BE HARD TO COMPARE
GORBACHEV TO PUTIN OR STALIN.
THESE ARE VERY, VERY DIFFERENT
TEMPERAMENTS WHO SAW THE
INTERESTS OF THEIR COUNTRY IN A
VERY, VERY DIFFERENT WAY.
I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN
TERMS OF PUTIN IS COURAGE.
THAT TO ME SEEMS TO BE A THEME.
THERE ARE ALWAYS SORTS OF
HISTORICAL AND ECONOMIC CURRENTS
AT WORK HERE, BUT WE'RE SEEING
IN ZELENSKYY THE ENORMOUS
HISTORICAL IMPORTANCE OF
INDIVIDUAL COURAGE TO, THEREOF,
THEREFORE, INSPIRE A NATION.
THAT IS IMPORTANT.
WHERE ARE WE GOING TO SEE KOURNG
COURAGE COMING OUT OF RUSSIA?
YOUR PREVIOUS GUESTS WERE
TALKING ABOUT OLIGARCHS AND SO
ON.
SO MANY PEOPLE OWE THEIR
POSITION AND WEALTH SOLELY TO
ONE MAN, NOT TO A SYSTEM, NOT TO
A CONSTITUTION, NOT TO THEIR OWN
EFFORTS BUT THEIR ABILITY TO GET
CLOSE TO THE GREAT LEADER AND TO
CURRY FAVOR WITH HIM AND IT IS
GOING TO BE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT
TO SEE WHO AND MICHAEL McFAUL I
THINK HAD THIS RIGHT, WHO
DEFECTS FROM THIS SYSTEM, SAYS
I'M WILLING TO PUT UP ALL MY
MILLIONS AND MY PRIVILEGES AND
MY POWER, AND INDEPENDENT'M GOIN
NO, NO MORE.
THAT'S GOING TO BE A VERY
IMPORTANT THING IN THE DAYS AND
WEEKS TO COME.
>> I THINK YOU'VE BEEN MAKING
SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT, MANY
MA,MA
EMMA, YOU WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE
RETURN TO THE COLD WAR WHEN WE
HAD CERTAIN SAFEGUARDS IN PLACE
AND NOT THE FAR MORE DANGEROUS
EARLIER PHASES OF THE COLD WAR,
WHICH WE'VE ALL HEARD FROM OUR
PARENTS ABOUT THAT WEEK DURING
THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS WHERE
PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED THAT
NUCLEAR ANNIHILATION WAS JUST
AROUND THE CORNER.
AND DO YOU SUGGEST THAT WHAT
WE'RE LOOKING A THE NOWT NOW IS
AN EARLIER RETURN TO THE COLD
WHERE WHERE WE DIDN'T HAVE ALL
THE SAFE GUARDS IN PLACE?
>> IT'S NOT A PERFECT METAPHOR.
THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENCES.
AGAIN, WE SAW THAT MAUREEN DOWD
COLUMN.
SHE'S TALKING ABOUT REAGAN AND
IS ZELENSKYY A METAPHOR FOR
REAGAN AND WE'RE ALL THINKING
ABOUT THAT PERIOD AT THE END OF
THE COLD WAR WHERE ARMS
CONTROLLED NEGOTIATIONS YIELDED
PROGRESS AND A FLOWERING IN U.S.
RUSSIAN AND COOPERATION.
THE MORE ANALOGOUS PERIOD I
THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IS
THE LATE 1940s AND EARLY 1950s
WHERE WE SEE THE SERIES OF CRISIS, THE BERLIN CRISIS, THE
CRISIS, THE BERLIN CRISIS, THE
BAY OF PIGS, THE CUBAN MISSILE
CRISIS AND THOSE CRISES ARE THE
REASONS WHY THE SUPER POWERS STARTED TO ENGAGE IN ARMS
STARTED TO ENGAGE IN ARMS
CONTROL OVER THE FOLLOWING DECK
ADDECK
DECKDECK
DECK -- DECADE. >> EVEN DURING THE CUBAN MISSILE
>> EVEN DURING THE CUBAN MISSILE
CRISIS, YOU HAD MEMBERS
CONCERNED ABOUT KRUSHCHEV.
WITH KRUSHCHEV YOU ACTUALLY HAD
CHECKS AND BALANCES AND WITH
PUTIN JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO BE
THERE, DOES IT?
>> NO, IT'S A MUCH MORE
CENTRALIZED ADMINISTRATION IN
RUSSIA.
BUT THE OTHER LESSON I THINK WE
SHOULD TALK FROM THOSE CRISES IS
THAT U.S. LEADERS WERE OFTEN
WILLING TO NEGOTIATE WITH
RUSSIA, TO PERHAPS GIVE SOME
CONCESSIONS ON OUR SIDE IN ORDER
TO GET CONCESSIONS ON THE
RUSSIAN SIDE.
CUBAN MISSION CRISIS.
WE INTERPRET IT AS KENNEDY WAS
TOUGH WITHAND WON.
THERE ARE WAYS TO TAKE LESSONS
FROM THE COLD WAR THAT MIGHT
HELP US DE-ESCALATE.
>> DAVID ARE FINAL, I FINAL THOU
>> YOU MAKE AN IMPORTANT POINT. YES, BREZHNEV WAS THE SECRETARY
YES, BREZHNEV WAS THE SECRETARY
OF THE CHRIST PARTYOMMUNIST PART
BUT HE WAS SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE IN POWER.
IN POWER.
AND WE DO NOT HAVE THAT DYNAMIC.
IT'S CERTAINLY NOT VISIBLE TO
US.
SO THE POWER DYNAMICS AT THE
VERY TOP OF THE KREMLIN ARE SO
INVINCIBLE THAT THE METAPHOR OF
HUM SITTING
HIM SITTING FROM THE END OF A
30-FOOT TABLE SEPARATED FROM NOT
ONLY FOREIGN VISITORS BUT HIS
OWN AIDES, THAT SHOULD TELL YOU