>> MY NEXT GUEST IS A MacARTHUR FELLOW AND A
BEST-SELLING AUTHOR, PLEASE WELCOME GEORGE SAUNDERS.
♪ ♪ ♪ ( APPLAUSE )
HOW ARE YOU?
>> I'M GOOD.
HOW ARE YOU.
>> Stephen: I'M DOING VERY WELL.
NICE TO SEE YOU.
>> YOU, TOO.
>> Stephen: HOW DOES THAT WHOLE MacARTHUR GENIUS THING
FEEL?
WHEN PEOPLE CALL YOU, YOU'RE OFFICIALLY A GENIUS NOW,
ACCORDING TO SOME PEOPLE WHO GAVE YOU CASH.
DO YOU LIKE TO THROW THAT IN PEOPLE'S FACE?
>> VERY MUCH.
I'M HOPING TO GET IT A SECOND TIME SO I CAN LIVE IT UP.
>> Stephen: ARE THERE OTHER TWO-FERS ON THAT?
>> NO.
>> Stephen: I'M SORRY.
DID YOU RUN THROUGH THE CASH ALREADY?
>> PRETTY MUCH, YEAH.
>> Stephen: YOU'RE ONE OF MY FAVORITE LITERARY GUESTS AND ONE
OF MY FAVORITE AUTHORS.
>> THANK YOU.
>> Stephen: YOU DON'T LOOK THAT MUCH LIKE AN AUTHOR.
RIGHT NOW YOU LOOK LIKE A BIKENER A TIE.
>> A BIT OF A MUPPET, MAYBE, A MUPPET.
A MUP NET A TIE.
>> Stephen: I CAN IMAGINE HENSON WITH HIS HAND UP YOU
RIGHT NOW.
( LAUGHTER ).
>> BUT DON'T, DON'T, NO.
>> Stephen: I WON'T.
>> WE'LL COTHAT LATER.
>> Stephen: YOU'VE GOT-- YOU'RE RE-RELEASING RIGHT NOW A
WORRYING BOOK CALLED "THE VERY PERSISTENT GAPPERS OF FRIP."
AND THIS IS WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN, A CHILDREN'S BOOK.
COW BELIEVE THERE IS SUCH A THING AS CHILDREN'S BOOKS VERSUS
ADULT BOOKS.
I INTERVIEWED MAURY SENDAC.
HE SAID HE DIDN'T WRITE CHILDREN'S BOOKS.
HE WROTE A BOOK AND SOMEBODY SAID, "THIS IS FOR CHILDREN."
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS WHEN YOU WRITE A BOOK?
>> WHEN I WROTE THIS ONE MY IDEA WAS ADULT LITERATURE IS
CAUTIONARY, ESPECIALLY IN A CULTURE LIKE OURS WHICH IS SO
AFFLUENT.
IT REMINDS US, JUST BECAUSE STUFF IS GOOD FOR US, IT'S NOT
GOOD FOR EVERYBODY ELSE AND IT MIGHT NOT BE GOOD FOR US,
FOREVER.
IT'S A SOMBER, CAUTIONARY THING.
FOR KIDS-- I WROTE THIS FOR MY DAUGHTER.
I THOUGHT WHAT THEY MAYBE NEED TO HEAR IS SORT OF LIKE A
RADICAL DEFENSIVE TENDERNESS, THE FACT THAT THE WORLD DOES
SOMETIMES GO BAD, BUT WHEN IT DOES, WE HAVE RESOURCES.
WHAT THAT MEANT FOR ME WAS INSTEAD OF HAVING A BIG
DISASTROUS, MURDEROUS ENDING, IT HAD TO HAVE A HAPPY ENDING,
WHICH WAS KIND OF NEW FOR ME.
>> Stephen: I LIKE THE IDEA, RADICAL TENDERNESS?
>> YES.
>> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> MY TAKE ON IT IS, I DON'T KNOW, OUR WORLD HAS BECOME-- IN
MY LIFETIME-- MORE MATERIALIST, MORE ANALYTICAL, MORE
FACT-BASED, MORE SHAREHOLDERRER HONORING, KIND OF A GRADUAL
SHIFT TO THE RATIONAL SIDE OF THINGS.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY WHAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS
THAT OUR GIFTS-- OUR REAL POWERFUL GIFTS ARE LOVE,
TENDERNESS, PATIENCE.
IT'S POSSIBLE THIS A COUPLE GENERATIONS THOSE THINGS WE KIND
OF GREW UP ON COULD DRIFT OUT OF THE PICTURE.
ESPECIALLY, WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS, WHAT I WOULD DO-- I'M A
REALLY CONTROL FREAK WRITER.
LIKE I DO HUNDREDS OF DRAFTS.
>> Stephen: THE DISCIPLINE OF A SHORT STORY REALLY IS ALL
ABOUT CONTROL.
>> AND I'VE GOT THIS, LIKE, INNER NUN, YOU KNOW, THAT IS IS
LIKE, "THAT SUCTION" THEY WOULDN'T SAY "SUCK" BUT
THEY WOULD SAY, "THAT'S INFERIOR."
>> Stephen: "THAT'S DISAPPOINTING GEORGE."
>> YOU ALMOST SENT ME INTO A FLASHBACK JUST NOW.
( LAUGHTER ) SO THE WRITING PROCESS FOR
ADULTS IS REALLY RIGOROUS AND COULD HAVE O.C.D.
WHEN OUR DAUGHTERS WERE LITTLE EVERY SO OFTEN I WOULD GO IN AND
IMPROVISE, WHICH FOR ME WAS REALLY THIN ICE.
>> Stephen: IMPROVISE A STORY?
>> YES, NO REVISING ALLOWED.
SO WHAT WAS INTERESTING WAS THEY WERE SUCH WONDERFUL GIRLS.
SO WHEN YOU'RE IMPROVISING A STORY YOU CAN GAUGE THE AUDIENCE
AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT THEY PREFER.
SO OVER THE YEARS, THE STORIES THAT I TENDED TO TELL THEM WERE
KIND OF LIKE NOT-- WELL, NOBODY DIED, FOR ONE.
THERE WASN'T A LOT OF CRUSHING OF ENEMIES.
IT WAS MORE LIKE THE LITTLE GIRL IN THE STORY WOULD HAVE A
PROBLEM, WOULD SOLVE IT, AND THEM WOULD KIND OF LOOK BACK AND
HELP HER ENEMIES, YOU KNOW, KIND OF REDEEM HER ENEMY S.
>> Stephen: THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS, THE MAIN
CHARACTER, CAPABLE.
THE ENEMIES AREN'T CRUSHED.
EVERYBODY IS HAPPY IN THE END.
>> RIGHT.
THEY TURN ON HER AND SHE AT A CERTAIN MOMENTS SHE THINKS, "I
CAN WIN OR I CAN WIN AND GO BACK AND HELP THEM AS WELL."
SO THAT WAS KIND OF THE YOU KNOW...
>> Stephen: DO YOU THINK THAT NONFICTION CAN BE FRIENDLY?
I'LL TELL YOU THE REASON WHY IS I READ A LOT OF NONFICTION
BOOKS.
BUT I ALSO READ A TON OF FICTION WHEN I WAS YOUNGER.
AND I USED TO THINK OF THE FICTION BOOKS AS MY FRIENDS, NOT
THE CHARACTERS, BUT LITERALLY THE BOOK WAS MY FRIEND BECAUSE I
HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BOOK.
CAN NONFICTION DO THAT?
>> SURE.
BECAUSE I THINK THE REASON YOU FELT THAT WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG--
THIS IS WEIRD, BUT PROSE, WHEN DONE RIGHT IS LIKE EMPATHY
TRAINING WHEELS.
FIRST OF ALL, I'M WRITING A CHARACTER.
USUALLY WHEN YOU START, YOU'RE WRITING DOWN.
YOU'RE MAKING FUN OF SOMEBODY.
YOU'RE GIVING THEM SOME REALLY OBVIOUS DEFECT THAWKS KICK
AROUND.
THE STORY FORM DOESN'T LIKE THAT.
IT FEELS LIKE YOU'RE CONED SENDING.
SO IN REWRITING YOU'RE BRINGING THE CHARACTER UP.
YOU MAKE HIM MORE LIKE YOURSELF, SMARTER, SHARPER.
IN THAT SENSE YOU'RE BUILDING EMPATHY BETWEEN AND YOU THE
CHARACTER.
MEANWHILE, I'M WRITING TO YOU, AND YOU'RE KIND OF WATCHING ME
TO SEE HOW MUCH I RESPECT YOUR INTELLIGENCE.
LIKE, IF I PUT IN A BUNCH OF EMPTY PHRASES, FOR EXAMPLE,
YOU'RE GOING TO THINK, "WHY DOES HE THINK SO LITTLE OF ME?
WHY IS HE WASTING MY TIME?" FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAD
SOMETHING LIKE, "BOB CAME INTO THE ROOM AND SAT DOWN ON THE
BROWN COUCH."
A PERFECTLY GOOD ENGLISH SENTENCE.
THE INNER NUN WOULD SAY, "WHY DOES HE HAVE TO COME INTO THE
ROOM?
CAN'T HE ALREADY BE IN THE ROOM?"
OKAY.
SO YOU CUT THAT OUT.
BOB SAT DOWN ON THE BROWN COUCH.
YOU CAN SIT UP ON A COUCH?
NO, SISTER, YOU CAN'T.
SO YOU CUT THAT.
AND THEN, "BOB SAT ON THE BROWN COUCH."
"WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE BROWN?" "BOB SAT ON THE COUCH."
"WHY IS HE SITTING ON THE COUCH?"
AND THEN YOU CUT IT.
YOU JUST HAVE "BOB."
( LAUGHTER ) BUT IT DOESN'T --
>> EVENTUALLY, DON'T YOU HAVE TO ASK THE NUN TO LEAVE THE ROOM?
>> YOU DO, YOU DO, YOU DO.
>> Stephen: THE MAIN CHARACTER CAPABLE IN THIS, SHE HAS-- SHE
SAYS SHE HAS-- IT'S NOT ALL THAT MUCH FUN BEING THE SORT OF
PERSON WHO EATS A BIG DINNER IN A WARM HOUSE WHILE OTHERS
SHIVER.
WHY DOES SHE SAY THAT?
>> WELL, SHE'S GOTTEN TO THAT PLACE WHERE SHE'S KIND OF SOLVED
HER PROBLEM, AND MEANWHILE, HER NEIGHBORS ARE OUT THERE WITH
THEIR PROBLEM UNSOLVED.
AND IT'S KIND OF THE MOMENT WHERE A DIFFERENT STORY WOULD
SAY, "WELL, TOO BAD."
BUT FOR HER, SHE KIND OF SAYS, "THIS IS NOT AS FUN AS I THOUGHT
IT WOULD BE SO I HAVE TO BRING THEM IN AND INCLUDE THEM."
>> Stephen: I UNDERSTAND YOU ACTUALLY WROTE A SONG ASSOCIATED
WITH THAT MOMENT IN THE BOOK.
>> DI.
I LOVED WRITING THIS BOOK AND I HAD A KIND OF CREATIVE OVERFLOW
AND I WROTE A BUNCH OF SONGS.
>> Stephen: WOULD YOU MIND?
>> I'M A LITTLE INTIMIDATED.
WITH THIS BAND, THIS IS LIKE HAVING SEX IN FRONT OF PORN
STARS.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) ALL RIGHT, BUT WE'LL TRY IT?
OKAY, WE'LL TRY IT.
>> Stephen: YEAH, ALL RIGHT.
>> ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU THINK OF THAT, THIS WILL BE RELATIVELY
EASY.
>> Stephen: EXACTLY.
ALL RIGHT.
YOU'RE GOING TO HELP ME.
>> Stephen: WHAT?
>> YOU'RE GOING TO HELP ME.
>> Stephen: SHOULD I JUMP IN?
>> PLEASE.
>> Stephen: THE WAY WE REHEARSED BEFORE THE SHOW?
>> SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD BE GOOD, OR EVEN MORE.
>> Stephen: YOU START AND I'LL SEE WHAT I CAN DO.
>> READY FOR THIS?
♪ THERE ARE DAYS IN THIS LIFE, THE SUN SHINING BRIGHT,
♪ WHEN WE SEE WHAT GOD INTENDED
♪ BUT THAT KIND, CLEAR SUN CAN'T WARM EVERYONE
♪ OH, TODAY IS A BEAUTIFUL DAY BUT NOT FOR YOU
♪ ALL MY LIFE, I'VE LIVED RIGHT BY DAY AND BY NIGHT
♪ NOW AT LAST, I AM REWARDED I WORKED HARD TO GET WHERE I GOT
♪ AS FOR YOU, APPARENTLY NOT, OH
♪ TODAY IS A BEAUTIFUL DAY BUT NOT FOR YOU
♪ NOT FOR YOU JUST FOR ME
♪ EVERYTHING'S FINE FAR AS I CAN SEE
♪ OH, THE WORLD IS A BEAUTIFUL PLACE
♪ AND IT KEEPS GETTING BETTER
♪ AS FOR YOU, WHATEVER YOU DID TOO BAD FOR YOU, KID, OH,
♪ TODAY IS A BEAUTIFUL DAY BUT NOT FOR YOU
♪ TODAY IS A BEAUTIFUL DAY IN EVERY WAY
♪ OH, TODAY IS A BEAUTIFUL DAY BUT NOT FOR YOU. ♪
>> Stephen: GEORGE SAUNDERS.
"THE VERY PERSISTENT GAPPERS OF FRIP."
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.
GEORGE WHAT, A TREAT.
THANK YOU.