[Dawkins] We are both biologist obviously heavily
involved in and concerned about the teaching
of evolution and the threat to it which comes
from ignorant bigots of a religious persuasion.
There are various, I mean obviously we agree about
the end we want to achieve but there are
differences among biologist on tactics.
How to proceed. You are a closer observer
of the American scene than I am obviously.
How do you see these tactical differences?
[Myers] There are the aggressive types, the
outspoken types like you and I who are out
there are the forefront trying to push.
Push really hard. And then I think there's
lots of people who are trying to react to that
aggressive approach and they are trying
to smooth things over.
[Dawkins] Like Eugenie Scott for example or... [Myers] Yeah Eugenie is a good example.
I mean she's clearly on the right side of everything.
She's on our side. And what she is doing is
she is trying to work at local levels.
She's trying to talk to people and trying to get
people to come over to the side of defending
evolution and good science teaching. Sometimes
I kind of feel like you and I are the bogeymen
[Myers] that she can use. (laughter) [Dawkins] Yes. We are rocking the boat
[Myers] Yes and I think that is a valuable
role for somebody to play.
[Dawkins] Yeah that's exactly my feelings as well.
Yes. And I can see where people like
Eugenie are coming from. Because what they're
doing is they know that there are pastors
and preachers who are telling their flock,
evolution and God are completely incompatible
therefore since you believe in God you
obviously, we can't tolerate evolution. Now,
she wants to say, no no you can join us. You
can go on believing in God, it's fine! You can
go on having your God. There's no incompatibilty
with evolution at all. Where as my approach is,
that I think that's only one skirmish in a larger
war. And I mean, I care passionately about the question
whether there actually is a supernatural designer
in the universe. That's what really matters
to me. So I think probably you feel the same.
[Myers] Well yeah. It's also a question of what I
want my fellow citizens to do. I want my
fellow citizens to be rational members of
society. And too often they're getting
hung up on this nonsense. And so I kinda
feel I have to attack at the level of the
nonsensical stuff they are saying and forget
about the bits where they're going along with me.
A really good example, I don't know if you
read Michael Dowd's book: "Thank God for Evolution"?
[Dawkins] Bits of it. [Myers] Bits of it yeah. (laughter) You know I read that
with a growing sense of horror actually.
Because he is clearly on our side. He wants
good science teaching right? But on the other
hand you read his book and he's got sections
where he talks about the virtues of speaking
[Myers] in tongues. How are we supposed to react to that? [Dawkins] Yes. Exactly.
[Myers] That's kind of undermining the
entire enlightened goal.
[Dawkins] Yes, that's going very far though. I mean, that's not... [Myers] Yes.
[Myers] That's not Eugenie Scott, That's Michael Dowd. But.. [Dawkins] No, no.
Dawkins: I think Eugenie Scott is more what
Steve Gould called NOMA, which is anathema
to me. We better expand on that: Non Overlapping
Magesteria. There is no conflict between
religion and science. Science gets the, what is it,
gets the ages of rocks and religion gets the rock of ages.
More dangerously I think, Steve was ready to
hand over morality to religion. And the sort of
deep fundamental questions of existence to
religion. That's just going much too far.
[Myers] Right. I really love Stephen Gould's
work. It's one of the things that turned me
on to evolutionary biology was Gould and
Dawkins, reading those when I was growing up.
But yeah I read Rocks of Ages with great
disappointment. It was a horrible book.
It didn't ring true to me and I don't think it
[Myers] rings true to the Christians either. [Dawkins] I don't think it rings true to Steve either.
I mean, when you think about it, the territory
that he was in fact preparing to cede to,
no miracles, no virgin birth, no resurrection,
there really is nothing much left of religion.
But then he goes and hands over morality
and deep questions.
[Myers] Why are we here?
[Dawkins] Well we agree about that. Going back to
the point about whether we welcome people in
and say, the point about the pastors and
preachers who had taught their flock that
there is an incompatibility between evolution and God
and Genie will try to dispel that and say no
it's fine, you can have both. I'm not sure that
a better tact isn't the exact opposite.
If they've already been told there's an incompatibility
between religion and evolution, well let's tell them that,
let's convince them of evolution and we are there.
Because after all we've got the evidence. I mean,
no seriously educated person can doubt that
[Dawkins] evolution is a fact. And so all we've got to do now [Myers] Correct.
since they have been carefully pre-trained
by their preachers to believe there is an
incompatibility is to...any hope there do you think?
[Myers] Turn the pastors into servants of science. [Dawkins] Yeah.
[Myers] Well, yeah, okay. But, you know the thing is
I think most people in this country are not predisposed
to think that evolution has anything good going for it.
[Myers] They've been lied to. [Dawkins] But if we could take somebody who
has been from the cradle up has been brain
washed into believing there is an incompatibility
now you take that person and give him some
tutorials and actually show him the facts.
Show them the facts they can't come away not really
understanding if you pay a lot of attention to it.
Now whereas if they have been pre-trained by
somebody like an bishop who says oh there's no
incompatibility, evolution is God's way of doing things,
then their won't be a problem.
But if they have got it firmly entrenched in their
heads that there is an incompatibility,
[Dawkins] then in a sense we've got an easier task. [Myers] Right.
[Dawkins] If we want to kill religion because half our work
has been done for us. All we've got to do
is to persuade people of what is actually obvious
to anybody who looks sufficiently, carefully
at the facts. Namely, that evolution is true.
[Myers] Yeah. I had a very similar conversation with
a conservative christian minister a while back.
Where he was, he was complaining to me because
the kids on my town come to my college and take
the biology courses and I teach them all this
materialist, naturalist phenomena, rational
stuff and it's undermining their belief system.
And I had to tell him that, you know,
I do not get into the classroom
and tell them that their religion is wrong.
I do not do that. I do not say...in the classroom I have a
job to do and it's not to tell them that
God doesn't exist. And so what I told him is that
what he's doing basically is that they're taking
all these kids in Sunday school and they're telling them
that it's an article of their faith that the sky is green.
And then they come to the university and I don't
tell them that they are wrong, I tell them just to
open their eyes and look up. And that's what's hurting.
His concern was kids were coming to college and they're losing faith.
[Myers] But I had to tell him it's not my fault. It's his fault. [Dawkins] Well, right. Absolutely.
[Dawkins] It's his fault. Exactly. Yes.
Whereas if he taught them like a
Church of England vicar, there wouldn't be any problem
because they'd have been predisposed
to think that there's no incompatibility.
[Myers] Those guys are nearly atheist already, right? (laughter)
Dawkins: Yes, well yes.
Do you ever get students complaining that you're
offending their beliefs? I mean, you don't talk
about religion you just said. But, simply by teaching
them about evolution, do they sort of fold
their arms and kind of look defiant and...
Myers: Yes, I've actually, you know, because I've got
this blog that is rather out there and everybody
can see it, my first day of class I have go in and tell them
that I'm not going to grade them on the basis of their
political affiliation or their religious beliefs. Okay?
All they have to do is understand the material in the course.
But I still get people who get very upset.
One of my colleagues told me, you know,
they usually don't confront me,
but one of my colleagues told me that
one of my students had to come to her and talk to her about this.
She basically said she felt nauseous going
into the classroom because I was throwing
out all this evolution stuff and she just couldn't take it.
[Dawkins] Physically? I mean, literally? [Myers] Physically ill.
[Dawkins] Literally got ill and threw up? (laughter) [Myers] She could not stomach
[Myers] coming into class. And seriously,
I have this reputation, but like we talked about earlier
I am a teddy bear. I do not stand up and rant
about the evils of religion in the classroom.