- So I'm here with Stu Schmill, Dean of Admissions at MIT.
Thanks for joining me.
- Sure, happy to, Sal.
- So what I wanted to ask you about is,
it's just the general notion of, well, of course,
college admissions, but in particular,
there tends to be some stereotypes
in terms of what makes a competitive applicant,
and I'll just throw out, at least my stereotype of,
you take, i don't know, five, six AP courses
and you do really well in them,
you have a very high SAT score,
your GPA is near perfect,
you're close to the top of your class,
you're vice-president or president
of three or four clubs,
you play first viola in the symphony or whatever,
whatever it might be--
- Or all of those, yes.
- All of those, so how much truth
is there to that and or not?
- Well, I think the things that you've just described
are components
that a certain student might have
as part of their application, and it is not
the first way that we think about
evaluating students.
So, we think about trying to enroll students
that are going to succeed
academically on our campuses,
who are going to be well-matched to our institution,
so that the kinds of things that motivates
those students, that get them excited,
are the things and the culture on our campus,
and then we think about what kind of contributions
that those students might be able to make to our campuses,
which might mean any particular kinds of
talent that they have, but also
how engaged they're going to be
in the life of the university.
So that's really the lens that we're looking through
and students can manifest those things
and demonstrate those things in different ways.
So, you talked about a number of
AP classes and things like that
that students might have, and for us,
we're looking at the choices that students have made
around their academics but also their non-academics,
so academically, we want to see
that students are challenging themselves
in the things that really interest them,
and students can do that in any number of different ways.
So AP classes may be one, but there are other ways
of doing that as well,
and not all students have even access to AP classes.
And it's not as though there's a particular tally
or score sheet that we have
where we're looking at a student's record
and saying they have to have certain markers
because, really, there are all different kinds of markers,
all different ways that students can demonstrate
these different talents.
So if certainly, academically, as I said earlier,
not all students have access to taking AP classes,
so there may be other ways
that students can demonstrate to us
that academically they're going to be ready
to succeed on our campus.
- So there are these two realities.
On one extreme, you have,
and this is maybe the more traditional reality,
that students taking a lot of very rigorous courses,
doing a lot of homework, staying until 2:00 in the morning,
they're very stressed out,
they, frankly, don't have time to pursue their passions.
On the other side, you could have students
who aren't in a traditional system maybe,
and maybe they don't even have traditional grades,
but they're able to show evidence
of their academic knowledge through a standardized test,
through, maybe they take things like
the AP tests themselves, maybe independent study for it,
maybe they take some college courses,
but they have more time to pursue their passions
and build portfolios,
I mean, on some levels, basically what I'm hearing,
it sounds like that second string might even be
at an advantage.
- I think students that are overloading themselves,
their coursework,
where they don't leave any time for anything else,
are definitely doing themselves a disservice.
I think students, again, challenge themselves
in the areas that interest them,
but I think students also really need to
leave themselves time and capacity
to pursue more independent projects.
Independent, I don't mean by themselves,
independent projects could mean
with other people, certainly,
but these other projects that allow students
to use some creativity
and independent thought
in coming up with some new and interesting things
in whatever topics interest them,
those are the kinds of things
that we also really like to see
students submit as part of their application,
we really like to see it,
and those kinds of projects can really help students,
because it can show them, it can show us,
kinds of things that students might want to pursue
once they come to campus,
and, so, on the academic side,
really, we're just looking for evidence
that students are talented and capable,
and that they're gonna do well, and beyond that,
we're looking at the rest of it, and those
portfolios that students can submit
showing the independent work they've done
can really enhance their applications.
- So a student, just to make it concrete,
a student with strong SAT scores,
ones that we show are ACT scores,
that show evidence that they'll do well at a place like MIT,
strong, maybe, AP scores,
and the rigorous ones that they have an interest in,
plus a portfolio of things that they've,
substantive things that they've done,
not just, kind of, cookbook projects,
but things that will really show their passions,
they would have a strong application.
- Those students would have a very strong application.
- So that brings up another interesting dimension,
I mean, at the other extreme end of this,
you do have some home schooled students,
you have this unschooling movement,
but how do you evaluate those students,
and actually even compare them relative to the students
who are taking the five AP classes
in a traditional college prep school?
- Right.
So, I think thinking about home schooled students
is a great way
to demonstrate the fact that
it's not just about the AP classes
because we have home schooled students
who were very successful
and who do successful in our process, certainly,
but also become very successful once at MIT.
We do need evidence, though, that they're going to do well,
and there are a number of ways
that students can demonstrate that to us.
It is one of the reasons why we require standardized tests,
I mean, that's one piece of information.
It's not all of it, but it's one.
Some students, right,
who are not in traditional schooling pathways
will still take classes
in less traditional ways,
so some will take classes at local colleges, for example,
and be able to demonstrate their ability that way.
And then there are other various kinds of,
of ways students can do it,
for example, the American Math Competition
offers these competitions where students who have a
high ability in math can do well on these exams
and progress towards and through the Olympiad program,
and it's a way for students to demonstrate, again,
their talents, at least in math, so that's one example,
and there are other ways like that.
So we're open to evaluating all kinds of evidence
that students can present to us
to demonstrate
their ability to succeed once they come here.
- Well, thank you, I think that this is really exciting.
I think I have some young people I need to call
and tell them about it. (Stu laughs)
- That's great, send them our way.
(Sal laughs softly)