WELCOME BACK EVERYBODY.
NEXT GUEST IS A PROFESSOR AT VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY AND A "NEW
YORK TIMES" BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF OVER 20 BOOKS.
HIS NEWEST IS "LONG TIME COMING."
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," MICHAEL ERIC DYSON!
PROFESSOR DYSON, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU.
>> Stephen: NOW, YOU'VE AUTHORED 20 BOOKS, AS I SAID.
WE'VE BEEN TALKING FOR ALMOST 15 YEARS NOW, SINCE THE FIRST TIME
I EVER INTERVIEWED TO YOU.
THIS NEW BOOK "LONG TIME COMING" USES A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FORM
THAT YOU'VE USED IN THE PAST.
THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE FORM OF LETTERS TO BLACK VICTIMS OF
POLICE BRUTALITY AND RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES.
WHY DID YOU WANT TO WRITE THESE LETTERS TO THESE PEOPLE, RATHER
THAN ABOUT THEM?
>> YES, SIR.
IT'S A GREAT DISTINCTION.
I DIDN'T WANT TO FURTHER OBJECTIFY THEM.
I DIDN'T WANT TO EXPLOIT THEIR DEATH AS A WAY TO SELL BOOKS.
I WANTED TO COMMUNE WITH THEM.
IT'S NOT IN A LOOSEY-GOOSY ABSTRACT SENSE.
I MEAN LEARN FROM THEIR WISDOM, DRAW FROM THEIR RECENTLY
ANCESTRAL STATUS.
AND I WANTED TO SAY BY TALKING TO THEM, BY COMMUNING WITH THEM,
I'M THINKING OUT LOUD.
IT'S FORCING ME TO TALK ABOUT HOW THEY DIED.
WHAT ARE THE REASONS FOR WHICH THEY WERE KILLED?
HOW DO WE STOP THE TRAIN OF INCESSANT KILLING OF BLACK
PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY AT THE HANDS OF COPS, BUT ALSO BY VIGILANTES?
AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO DERIVE WISDOM FROM THEIR JOURNEY SO
THAT WE CAN PREVENT OTHERS FROM SUFFERING A SIMILAR FATE.
>> Stephen: THE BOOKS, IN SOME WAYS, IS A RESPONSE TO THE
PROTESTS THIS SUMMER OVER POLICE BRUTALITY.
THEY WERE MASSIVE, SOME OF THE LARGEST PROTESTS IN HISTORY, NOT
ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES BUT AROUND THE WORLD.
OF COURSE, ONE OF THE-- ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT ARILESES
AFTER A SOCIAL MOMENT LIKE THAT IS HOW IS THAT SUSTAINED?
AND HOW IS THAT TURNED INTO SOMETHING LASTING?
>> YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
AND THAT'S WHAT ALL SOCIAL ORGANIZERS TRY TO FIGURE OUT--
HOW DO YOU TAKE A MOMENT AND MAKE IT A MOVEMENT.
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. SURFACED
BECAME FAMOUS, AND THEN WAS KILLED, WHAT, 12 YEARS LATER.
IT'S NOT LONG, THE TRAJECTORY OF TRANSFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE AT
YOUR DIPOSABLE.
SO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS LEVERAGE THE MOMENT IN A WAY BY
THINKING HOW CAN WE REPLICATE WHAT WE SAW ON THE STREETS IN
THE CORPORATE SWEELTS?
HOW CAN WE MAKE IT WORK IN SCHOOLS?
HOW CAN WE MAKE IT WORK IN OUR JOBS THAT WE ENJOY EVERY DAY,
THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO ONE ANOTHER?
SO YOU WANT TO TRANSLATE THE TREMENDOUS POWER THAT WE SAW IN
THOSE STREETS-- AND MAKE NO MISTAKE.
NOT ONLY WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST HISTORIES AROUND THE GLOBE, BUT
WHITE BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO SAW GEORGE FLOYD DIE, BECAUSE
THEY WERE AT HOME, BECAUSE THE PANDEMIC SAID, WE'VE ALL GOT TO
BE OUR SCREENS.
SO WE'RE LOOKING, SO IT CAME ACROSS AS A VERY POWERFUL
MOMENT.
AND THEN WHITE BRO BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AMONG OTHERS, SAW THAT
THE COVID PANDEMIC HAD ALREADY ASSAULTED BLACK BODIES.
SO THEY WERE MORE EMPATHETIC.
SO AS A RESULT OF THAT, GEORGE FLOYD GOT TO THEM IN A WAY THAT,
SAY, ERIC GARNER HAD NOT, IN A WAY THAT OTHER BLACK DEATHS,
WALTER SCOTT SCOTT AND MIKE BROWN HAD NOT.
SO TAKE THIS MOMENT OF RECKONING AND USE IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO
REFLECT MORE CRITICALLY UPON OUR LIVES AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN
EXTEND IT BEYOND THE YAHOO, AND THE CELEBRATION, AND THE RIGHT
ON TO SOMETHING DEEP AND SUSTAINED.
>> Stephen: ONE OF THE RALLYING CRIES-- I WANT TO GET
TO ANOTHER ONE.
I WANT TO GET TO "I CAN'T BREATHE" IN JUST A MOMENT.
BUT ONE OF THEM WAS DEFUND THE POLICE, CALLS TO DEFUND THE
POLICE.
BARACK OBAMA SAID THIS WEEK THAT DEFUND THE POLICE, HE CALLED
IT-- LET ME GET THIS RIGHT-- A SNAPPY SLOGAN THAT LOST A BIG
AUDIENCE.
DO YOU AGREE WITH HIM THAT THAT-- WHILE THE ATTENTION MAY
BE RIGHT, CALLING FOR DEFUNDING THE POLICE CAN TURN OFF A WIDE
SWATH OF THE POPULACE?
>> WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
AND THEN, I KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSET WITH HIM, BUT IF YOU READ
THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW, THE WAY THE QUESTION WAS SET UP, HE'S
TRYING TO ANSWER IT BASED UPON THE PRESUMPTION THAT USING THAT
PHRASE WOULD ALREADY LOSE PEOPLE.
BUT REMEMBER THIS: MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., SAID, HEY, THE
MODERATE, WHITE MINISTERS IN BIRMINGHAM WROTE ME AN OPEN
LETTER, AND THEY ACCUSED ME OF BEING AN EXTREMIST.
AND HE SAID, FIRST IT GOT TO ME.
BUT THEN I THOUGHT, WAIT A MINUTE, JESUS WAS AN EXTREMIST
FOR LOVE.
AMOS WAS AN EXTREMIST FOR JUSTICE.
MARTIN LUTHER FOR REFORMATION.
SO I GOT USED TO THAT TERM AND EMBRACED IT.
THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
IF BARACK OBAMA RIGHTLY SAYS, HEY, DO YOU WANT THE COMMERCIAL
OR THE PRODUCT?
DO YOU WANT TO SELL IT AND CELEBRATE IT AND SAY, HEY, WE'RE
ALL DOING IT?
OR DO YOU WANT TO QUIETLY MOVE UP TO THE BAR AND SAY, LOOK,
THIS IS THE STUFF NANEEDS TO HAPPEN.
THAT I AGREE WITH.
BUT HERE'S THE PROBLEM-- IF YOU'RE USING YOUR PARTICULAR
MOMENT, MR. OBAMA-- AND YOU HAVE ONE OF THE BIGGEST PLATFORMS IN
THE WORLD BESIDES STEPHEN COLBERT, YOU'VE GOT THE NEXT
BIGGEST ONE-- FIGURE OUT HOW TO SAY, LOOK, BUT I STAND WITH
THOSE WHO WANT TO REFORM THE POLICE.
IN FACT, I STAND WITH THOSE WHO WANT TO ABOLISH SOME OF THE
HORRIBLE PRACTICES HERE.
ABOLITION WAS NOT A BIG THING WHITE PEOPLES LIKED IN THE
MID-INE00s IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT GUESS WHAT?
IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
I BELIEVE IN BEING SELF-CRITICAL AND BEING INTROSPECTIVE.
USE WORDS THAT WON'T TURN PEOPLE OFF, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, DON'T
USE YOUR PLATFORM TO MAKE THE VULNERABLE MORE VULNERABLE.
IF, IN YOUR MODERATION, YOU ARE STRONG AGAINST THE WEAK BUT YOU
ARE WEAK AGAINST THE STRONG, YOUR MODERATION IS WORSE THAN
EXPEDIENT.
IT'S COWARDLY AT THAT POINT.
AND WE DON'T WANT TO USE A PLATFORM TO REINFORCE THE POWER
OF THOSE WHO ALREADY ARE MIGHTY AND UNDERCUT THOSE WHO HAVE A
REAL ISSUE HERE.
THE POLICE HAVE HARMED AND HURT PEOPLE FOR SO LONG, THAT MAYBE
REFORMATION IS NOT ENOUGH.
AND LET ME SAY THIS, TOO.
DEFUND SIMPLY MEANS THIS-- YOU WANT TO PUT MONEY IN THE
ACCOUNTS OF THOSE WHO ARE MENTAL HEALTH EXPERTS SO THAT WHEN THE
POLICE ARE CALLED, YOU CAN SEND THEM OUT.
SO, YEAH, FIND A DIFFERENT WORD, FIND A DIFFERENT PHRASE, BUT I
THINK OBAMA COULD STAND BEHIND THOSE WHO WANT TO FIND NEW WAYS
TO ENCOUNTER OLD PROBLEMS.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.
BUT WHEN WE COME BACK, I'LL ASK PROFESSOR DYSON WHAT GIVES HIM
HOPE.
STICK AROUND.
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