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>> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of VeeamON 2022.
We're here at the Aria in Las Vegas.
This is day two, Dave Vallante with David Nicholson.
You know with theCUBE, we talked about the cloud a lot
and the company that started the cloud, AWS.
Jeanna James is here.
She's the Global Alliance Manager at AWS
and a data protection expert.
Great to see you.
Thanks for coming on theCUBE again.
>> Thanks so much for having me, Dave.
It's great to be here in person with everyone.
>> Yes, you know, we've done a few events live
more than a handful.
Thanks a lot to AWS.
We've done a number.
We did the DC Summits.
Of course, re:Invent was huge out here last year.
That was right in between
the sort of variant Omicron hitting.
And it was a great, great show.
We thought, okay, now we're back.
And of course we're kind of back,
but we're here and it's good to have you.
So Veeam, AWS, I mean, they certainly embrace the cloud.
What's your relationship there?
>> Yeah, so Veeam is definitely a strong partner with AWS.
And as you know, AWS is really a, you know,
we have so many different services,
and our customers and our partners
are looking at how can I leverage those services
and how do I back this up, right?
Whether they're running things on premises
and they want to put a copy of the data into Amazon S3,
Amazon S3 Infrequent Access
or Amazon S3 Glacier Deep Archive,
all of these different technologies,
you know Veeam supports them to get a copy
from on-prem into AWS.
But then the great thing is, you know,
it's nice to have a copy of your data in the cloud
but you might want to be able to do something with it
once it gets there, right?
So Veeam supports things like Amazon EC2
and Amazon EKS and EKS Anywhere.
So those customers can actually recover their data
directly into Amazon EC2 and EKS Anywhere.
>> So we, of course, talked a lot about ransomware
and that's important
in that context of what you just mentioned.
What are you seeing with the customers
when you talk to them about ransomware?
What are they asking AWS to do?
Maybe we could start unpacking that a bit.
>> Yeah, ransomware is definitely a huge topic today.
We're constantly having that conversation.
And, you know, five years ago there was a big malware attack
that was called the NotPetya virus.
And at that time it was based on Petya
which was a ransomware virus,
and it was designed to go in
and, you know, lock in the data
but it also went after the backup data, right?
So it hold all of that data hostage
so that people couldn't recover.
Well, NotPetya was based on that but it was worse
because it was the seek and destroy virus.
So with the ransomware, you can pay a fee
and get your data back.
But with this NotPetya, it just went in,
it propagated itself.
It started installing on servers and laptops,
anything it could touch and just deleting everything.
And at that time, I actually happened to be in the hospital.
So hospitals, all types of companies got hit by this attack.
And my father had been rushed to the emergency room.
I happened to be there.
So I saw live what really was happening.
And honestly, these network guys were running around
shutting down laptops,
taking them away from doctors and nurses,
shutting off desktops.
Putting like taping on pictures that said,
do not turn on, right?
And then, the nurses and staff
were having to kind of take notes.
And it was just, it was a mess, it was bad.
>> Putting masks on the laptops essentially.
>> Yeah, so just--
>> Disinfecting them or trying to.
Wow, unplugging things from the network.
>> Yes, because, you know,
and that attack really demonstrated
why you really need a copy of the data in the cloud
or somewhere besides tape, right?
So what happened at that time
is if you lose 10 servers or something,
you might be able to recover from tape,
but if you lose a hundred or a thousand servers
and all of your laptops, all in hours,
literally a matter of hours, that is a big event,
it's going to take time to recover.
And so, you know, if you put a copy of the backup data
in Amazon S3 and you can turn on that S3 Object Lock
for immutability, you're able to recover in the cloud.
>> So, can we go back to this hospital story?
'Cause that takes us inside the disaster potential.
So they shut everything down,
basically shut down the network
so they could figure out what's going on
and then fence it off, I presume.
So you got, wow, so what happened?
First of all, did they have to go manual, I mean?
>> They had to do everything manually.
It was really a different experience.
>> Going back to the 1970s, I mean.
>> It was, and they didn't know really how to do it, right?
So they basically had kind of yellow notepads
and they would take notes.
Well, then let's say the doctor took notes,
well, then the nurse couldn't read the notes.
And even over the PA, you know,
there was an announcement and it was pretty funny.
Don't send down lab work request with just the last name.
We need to know the first name, the last name,
and the date of birth.
There are multiple Joneses in this hospital
so yeah (giggles).
>> This is going to sound weird.
But so when I was a kid, when you worked retail,
if there was a charge for, you know, let's say $5.74
and, you know, they gave you, you know, amount of money,
you would give them, you know, the penny back,
count up in your head that's 75,
give them a quarter and then give them the change.
Today, of course, it works differently.
The computer tells you, how much change to give.
It's like they didn't know what to do.
They didn't know how to do it manually
'cause they never had the manual process.
>> That's exactly right.
Some of the nurses and doctors had never done it manually.
>> Wow, okay, so then technically they have to figure out
what happened so that takes some time.
However they do that.
That's kind of not your job, right?
I dunno if you can help with that or not.
Maybe Amazon has some tooling to do that, probably does.
And then you've got to recover from somewhere,
not tape ideally.
That's like the last resort.
You put it on a Chevy Truck,
Chevy Truck Access Method called CTAM, ship it in.
That takes days, right?
If you're lucky.
So what's the ideal recovery.
I presume it's a local copy somewhere.
>> So the ideal-- >> It's fenced.
>> In that particular situation, right?
They had to really air gap
so they couldn't even recover on those servers
and things like that--
>> Because everything was infected on on-prem.
>> Because everything was just continuing to propagate.
So ideally you would have a copy of your data in AWS
and you would turn on Object Lock which is the immutability,
very simple check mark in Veeam to enable that.
And that then you would be able to kick off your restores
in Amazon EC2, and start running your business so.
>> Yeah, this ties into the discussion
of the ransomware survey
where, you know, NotPetya was not seeking to extort money,
it was seeking to just simply arrive and destroy.
In the ransomware survey,
some percentage of clients who paid ransom,
never got their data back anyway.
>> Oh my.
>> So you almost have to go into this treating--
>> Huge percentage.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Like a third.
>> Yeah, when you combine the ones where there was no request
for ransom, you know, for any extorted funds,
and then the ones where people paid but got nothing back.
I know Maersk Line, the shipping company
is a well studied example of what happened with NotPetya.
And it's kind of chilling because what you describe,
people running around shutting down laptops
because they're seeing all of their peers' screens go black.
>> Yes, that's exactly what's happening.
>> And then you're done.
So that end point is done at that point.
>> So we've seen this,
I always say there are these milestones in attacks.
I mean, Stuxnet proved what a nation state could do
and others learned from that, NotPetya, now SolarWinds.
And people are freaking out about that
because it's like maybe we haven't seen the last of that
'cause that was highly stealth,
not a lot of, you know, Russian language in the malware.
They would delete a lot of the malware.
So very highly sophisticated island hopping,
self forming malware.
So who knows what's next?
We don't know.
And so you're saying the ideal
is to have an air gap that's physically separate.
maybe you can have one locally as well,
we've heard about that too,
and then you recover from that.
What are you seeing in terms of your customers recovering
from that?
Is it taking minutes, hours, days?
>> So that really de depends on the customers SLAs, right?
And so with AWS, we offer multiple tiers of storage classes
that provide different SLA recovery times, right?
So if you're okay with data taking longer to recovery,
you can use something like Amazon S3 Glacier Deep Archive.
But if it's mission critical data,
you probably want to put it in Amazon S3
and turn on that Object Lock for immutability sake.
So nothing can be overwritten or deleted.
And that way you can kick off your recoveries directly
in AWS.
>> One of the demos today that we saw,
the recovery was exceedingly fast
with a very small data loss
so that's obviously a higher level SLA.
You got to get what you pay for.
A lot of businesses need that.
I think it was like, I didn't think it was,
they said four minutes data loss which is good.
I'm glad they didn't say zero data loss
'cause there's really no such thing.
So you've got experience, Jeanna,
in the data protection business.
How have you seen data protection evolve in the last decade
and where do you see it going?
Because let's face it, I mean when AWS started,
okay, it had S3, 15 years ago, 16 years ago,
whatever it was.
Now, it's got all these tools as you mentioned.
So you've learned,
you've innovated along with your customers.
You listened to your customers.
That's your whole thing, customer obsession.
>> That's right.
>> What are they telling you?
What do you see as the future?
>> Definitely, we see more and more containerization.
So you'll see with the Kasten by Veeam product, right?
The ability to protect Amazon EKS,
and Amazon EKS Anywhere,
we see customers really want to take advantage
of the ability to containerize
and not have to do as much management, right?
So much of what we call
undifferentiated heavy lifting, right?
So I think you'll see continued innovation
in the area of containerization, you know,
serverless computing.
Obviously with AWS,
we have a lot going on with artificial intelligence
and machine learning.
And, you know, the backup partners,
they really have a unique capability
in that they do touch a lot of data, right?
So I think in the future, you know,
things around artificial intelligence
and machine learning and data analytics,
all of those things could certainly be very applicable
for folks like Veeam.
>> Yeah, you know, we give a lot of,
we acknowledge that backup is different from recovery
but we often fall prey to making the mistake
of saying, oh, well your data is available
in X number of minutes.
Well, that's great.
What's it available to?
So let's say I have backed up to S3
and it's immutable.
By the way my wife keeps calling me
and saying she wants mutability for me.
(Jeanna laughs) I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.
But now I've got my backup in S3, begs the question,
okay, well, now what do I do with it?
Well, guess what you mentioned EC2.
>> That's right.
>> The ability exists to create a restore environment
so that not only is the data available
but the services are actually online and available--
>> That's right--
>> Which is what you want with EKS and Kasten.
>> So if the customer is running, you know, Kubernetes,
they're able to recover as well.
So yes, definitely, I see more and more services like that
where customers are able to recover their environment.
It might be more than just a server, right?
So things are changing.
It's not just one, two, three,
it's the whole environment. >> So speaking of the future,
one of the last physical theCUBE interviews
that Andy Jassy did with us.
John Furrier and myself, we were asking about the edge
and he had a great quote.
He said, "Oh yeah, we look at the data center
as just another edge node."
I thought that was good classic Andy Jassy depositioning.
And so it was brilliant.
But nonetheless, we've talked a little bit about the edge.
I was interviewing Verizon last week,
and they told me they're putting outposts everywhere,
like leaning in big time.
And I was saying, okay, but outpost, you know,
what can you do with outpost today?
Oh, you can run RDS.
And, you know, there's a few ecosystem partners
that support it,
and he's like, oh no, we're going to push Amazon.
So what are you seeing at the edge
in terms of data protection?
Are customers giving you any feedback
at this point?
>> Definitely, so edge is a big deal, right?
Because some workloads require that low latency,
and things like outpost allow the customers
to take advantage of the same API sets
that they love in, you know, AWS today, like S3, right?
For example.
So they're able to deploy an outpost
and meet some of those specific guidelines
that they might have around compliance
or, you know, various regulations,
and then have that same consistent operational stance
whether they're on-prem or in AWS.
So we see that as well as the Snowball devices, you know,
they're being really hardened
so they can run in areas that don't have connected,
you know, interfaces to the internet, right?
So you've got them running in like ships or, you know,
airplanes, or a field somewhere out
in nowhere of this field, right?
So lots of interesting things going on there.
And then of course with IoT
and the internet of things
and so many different devices out there,
we just see a lot of change in the industry
and how data is being collected, how data's being created
so a lot of excitement.
>> Well, so the partners are key for outposts obviously
'cause you can't do it all yourself.
It's almost, okay, Amazon now in a data center
or an edge node.
It's like me skating.
It's like, hmm, I'm kind of out of my element there
but I think you're learning, right?
So, but partners are key to be able to support that model.
>> Yes, definitely our partners are key,
Veeam, of course, supports the outpost.
They support the Snowball Edge devices.
They do a lot.
Again, they pay attention to their customers, right?
Their customers are moving more and more workloads into AWS.
So what do they do?
They start to support those workloads, right?
Because the customers also want that consistent,
like we say, the consistent APIs with AWS.
Well, they also want the consistent data protection strategy
with Veeam.
>> Well, the cloud is expanding.
It's no longer just a bunch of remote services
somewhere out there in the cloud.
It's going to data centers.
It's going out to the edge.
It's going to local zones.
You guys just announced a bunch of new local zones.
I'm sure there are a lot of outposts in there,
expanding your regions.
Super cloud is forming right before our eyes.
Jeanna, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE.
>> Thank you.
It's been great to be here.
>> All right, and thank you for watching theCUBE's coverage.
This is day two.
We're going all day here, myself, Dave Nicholson, cohost.
Check out siliconangle.com.
For all the news, thecube.net, wikibon.com.
We'll be right back right after this short break.
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