TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH IT. >> I DONT THINK THATS TRUE.
BUT OF COURSE YOURE RIGHT.
LETS FAST-FORWARD TO NOW.
>> ALEXANDER KOGAN IS WITH US
FROM LONDON.
FROM LONDON.
GOOD MORNING TO YOU.
GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> GOOD MORNING, SAVANNAH.
>> THIS STORY CAN GET REAL TECHNICAL REAL FAST.T REAL
TECHNICAL REAL FAST. LETS TRY TO MAKE IT AS SIMPLE
AS POSSIBLE.
YOU, IN MANY TELLINGS OF THIS STORY, ARE THE ORIGINAL BAD GUY.
YOU TOOK THE DATA AND SOLD IT TO
CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA, THE
POLITICAL FIRM. WAS IT WRONG TO DO THAT?
WERE YOU WRONG?
>> AT THE TIME, WE DIDNT THINK
WE WERE DOING ANYTHING WRONG.
THAT WAS THE NORMAL BUSINESS AS USUAL PRACTICE.RMAL BUSINESS AS
USUAL PRACTICE. RIGHT NOW, ITS VIEWED AS WRONG,
NOW THAT WE KNOW HOW PEOPLE FEEL
ABOUT IT.
ABOUT IT.
>> WHEN YOU SAY IT WAS THE
NORMAL PRACTICE, YOURE SAYING THATS HOW THINGS WERE REALLYG
THATS HOW THINGS WERE REALLY DONE.
DONE.
IT WAS CLEAR. FACEBOOK SAYS YOU ARE NOT TO
SELL THIS DATA AND YET, YOU SOLD
THE DATA.
THE DATA.
>> THE AMAZING THING ABOUT FACEBOOKS POLICY, ITSABOUT
FACEBOOKS POLICY, ITS PRESENTED TO DEVELOPERS JUST
LIKE TERMS OF SERVICE ARE
PRESENTED TO THE USERS, HARD TO
FIND, EASY TO MISS.
MOST COMPANIES, IF YOU GO AND
LOOK AT APPS RIGHT NOW, THEY
HAVE LANGUAGE THAT IS IN DIRECT
CONTRADICTION TO THAT EXACT
CLAUSE.
SO, ARGUING THATS ACTUALLY FACEBOOKS POLICIES,CTUALLY
FACEBOOKS POLICIES, FASCINATING.
FASCINATING.
IF YOU WORK IN A BUILDING AND
EVERYBODY BRINGS IN YOUR DOG AND YOU BRING IN YOUR DOG AND IT AND
YOU BRING IN YOUR DOG AND IT PEES SOMEWHERE, AND SOMEBODY
SAYS, HOW CAN YOU BRING IN A DOG
BECAUSE WE HAVE A CLEAR NO-DOG
POLICY AND YOU LOOK AROUND SAYING, WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER
DOGS?
DOGS?
>> THATS A COLORFUL WAY TO PUT
IT, BUT THE FACT IS WASNT THIS FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES?SNT THIS
FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES? WASNT IT UNDER THE EXCEPTION
THAT IF YOURE A RESEARCHER YOU
CAN HAVE ACCESS TO THIS DATA.
THAT SEEMS LIKE A NO DOGS
ALLOWED POLICY.
ALLOWED POLICY.
>> THATS ALL ABSOLUTELY FALSE.
FACEBOOK HAS NO SPECIAL
EXCEPTIONS FOR RESEARCHERS.
WHEN WE DID THE PROJECT, IT WAS A NORMAL COMMERCIAL APP. IT WAS
A NORMAL COMMERCIAL APP. THERE WAS NO SPECIAL PERMISSIONS
FOR ME AS AN ACADEMIC.
IT WAS ANYTHING ANY COMPANY
COULD DO.
COULD DO. >> WHEN FACEBOOK ASKED YOU TO
DELETE THE DATA AFTER IT ALL
CAME OUT IN DECEMBER OF 2015, I
GUESS THEY DIDNT REACH OUT TO
YOU UNTIL 2016.
WHEN THEY ASKED YOU TO DELETE
THE DATA, DID YOU DO SO IMMEDIATELY?D YOU DO SO
IMMEDIATELY?
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> DID YOU RETAIN ANY COPIES?
>> WE WERE TRYING TO BE AS
COOPERATIVE AS POSSIBLE.
>> THIS IDEA THAT CAMBRIDGE
ANALYTICA WAS SELLING TO
POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS, IF WE HAVE
ALL THIS DATA, WE CAN DEVELOP
PERSONALITY PROFILES AND THAT
CAN HELP US MICROTARGET VOTERS
AND USE THEIR PSYCHOLOGY TO MAKE
A PITCH THAT IS DIRECTED RIGHT
TO THOSE VOTERS, IS THAT -- IS
THAT A LEGIT IDEA?
YOURE A PSYCHOLOGIST.
COULD THAT WORK?
>> NO.
>> NO. PSYCHOLOGY IS, SADLY, NOT THAT
GREAT AT UNDERSTANDING PEOPLE.
WERE WHERE THE GREEKS WERE WITH
PHYSICS.
PHYSICS.
WE THOUGHT ABOUT THE PROBLEMS
BUT WERE REALLY WRONG.
EVEN THE BASIC THESIS THAT PERSONALITY CAN BE USED TO MIND
CONTROL PEOPLE IS RIDICULOUS.
>> IF THATS THE CASE, WHAT WERE
YOU SELLING TO CAMBRIDGE
ANALYTICA?
ANALYTICA?
WHAT WAS YOUR PITCH?
THEY PAID 800,000 BUCKS.
>> YEAH.
THEY WERENT INTERESTED IN THE
PERSONALITY BIT AS FAR AS ME
CONVINCING THEM.
I WAS HELPING THEM MEASURE
SOMETHING THEY WERE ALREADY INTERESTED IN. WERE ALREADY
INTERESTED IN.
WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO IS FIGURE OUT HOW TO MEASURE THIS
CONSTRUCT
CONSTRUCT CONSTRUCT.
CONSTRUCT. THEY HAVE THEIR BELIEFS IN WHAT
IT IS USEFUL FOR AND NOT USEFUL
FOR.
FOR.
THEY HAPPENED TO BE QUITE
MISGUIDED.
>> FACEBOOK HAS CALLED YOU A
FRAUD AND A LIAR.
THEY PAINTED YOU AS THE CULL BRIT HERETED YOU AS THE CULL
BRIT HERE CULPRIT HERE.
CULPRIT HERE. WHATS YOUR RESPONSE?
>> ITS P.R. SPIN.
THEY ARE TRYING TO DISTRACT
PEOPLE THAT WHAT WE DID WAS THE
NORMAL PRACTICE BACK THEN.
AND THAT WAS THE FRIENDLY FACE
OF FACEBOOK.
OF FACEBOOK. I WORKED WITH THEM AND THEY KNEW
ME WELL AND I HAD A LOT OF
THINGS TO LOSE BY MAKING THEM
UPSET.
UPSET.
IF I KNEW THE PROJECT WOULD MAKE THEM UPSET, I WOULDNT DO IT.MAKE
THEM UPSET, I WOULDNT DO IT. A LOT MORE OTHER DEVELOPERS
COLLECTED MORE DATA AND WORRIED
LESS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH
FACEBOOK.
FACEBOOK.
>> DO YOU THINK THERES RESEARCHERS THAT GOT A TREASURE
TROVE OF DATA THAT YOU DID AND
THATS STILL OUT THERE?
>> FORGET RESEARCHERS.
TENS OF THOUSANDS OF COMPANIES
HAVE COLLECTED THIS DATA.
WERE HEARING NUMBERS LIKE 50
MILLION, 87 MILLION.
PROBABLY EVERY USER OR NEARLY
EVERY USER HAS BEEN COLLECTED
MANY, MANY TIMES BY MANY
COMPANIES AND FACEBOOK HAS NO
ACCOUNTING FOR WHERE THAT DATA
IS TODAY.
IS TODAY.
>> ALEXANDER KOGAN, I KNOW