>>> WHY IS IT SO RARE TO CONVICT
A POLICE OFFICER FOR SHOOTING AN
UNARMED SUSPECT, IT HAS
SOMETHING TO DO WITH QUALIFIED
IMMUNITY.
THE SUPREME COURT GRANTED IN
SPECIAL PROTECTION TO OFFICIALS
LIKE LAWEN ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.
THERE HAS TO BE A PRECEDENT
SHOWING THAT THE OFFICERS’
ACTIONS WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THAT MEANS HE CANNOT BE HELD
LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR
VIOLATING YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS
UNLESS THAT EXACT CONDUCT ISSED
A MISSABLE.
NOW, THERE’S A NEW PUSH TO END
THIS PRECEDENT.
MORE THAN 1500 BUSINESS LEADERS
ARTISTS, ACT LEADS, ADVOCATES
ARE SUPPORTING THE CAMPAIGN TO
END QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.
TWO OF THE CO-CHAIRS ARE BEN
COHEN AND JERRY GREENFIELD, THE
FOUNDERS OF BEN AND JERRYS, THEY
JOIN US NOW.
GENTLEMEN, GOOD EVENING.
>> HOW ARE YOU DOING?
>> HOW ARE YOU?
>> GOOD, GOOD, I HOPE YOU DON’T
MIND IF I CALL YOU BEN AND
JERRY.
FIRST OF ALL, WHO IS BEN?
BEN, RAISE YOUR HAND, SO PEOPLE
KNOW WHO IS WHO?
>> I’M BEN.
>> BEN IS ON THE LEFT AND JERRY
ON THE RIGHT.
BEN, STARTING WITH YOU, WHAT
WOULD ENDING QUALIFYING IMMUNITY
INVOLVE.
DOES IT MEAN YOU HAVE TO FIGHT
IT BACK TO THE SUPREME COURT?
OR PASS A LAW OR WHAT’S THE END
GAME?
>> THEY WERE TWO OPTIONS, EITHER
TO FIGHT IT BACK TO THE SUPREME
COURT, AND JUSTICE CLARENCE
THOMAS, AND SOTOMAYOR, WANTED TO
REVISIT AND OVERTURN IT, BUT THE
REST OF THE COURT WUND DOOULDN’T
IT.
NOW IT’S UP TO THE LEGISLATURE.
AND THEY JUST NEED TO PASS A LAW
AFFIRMING THE LAW THAT THEY
PASSED BACK IN THE 1870s, WHICH
SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED PEOPLE TO
SUE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES WHO HAD
VIOLATED THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL OR
CIVIL RIGHTS.
>> NOW, JERRY, QUALIFIED
IMMUNITY HAS BEEN TAKEN UP BY
CONGRESS BEFORE.
THERE WAS A BILL LAST SUMMER
THAT DIED IN THE SENATE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE
PROSPECTS, JERRY, FOR
LEGISLATION NOW?
>> WELL, I THINK PARTICULARLY
AFTER THE PROTESTS AFTER THE
MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, THERE’S
RENEWED INTEREST IN POLICE
REFORM.
THERE’S A CRISIS, IN LAW
ENFORCEMENT AND PEOPLE KNOW
SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.
AND IT’S ALREADY BEEN PASSED IN
THE STATE OF COLORADO.
AND SO, THAT SHOWED THAT IT’S
POSSIBLE.
AND THERE’S A BROAD COALITION OF
GROUPS THAT ARE SUPPORTING THIS.
RANGING FROM THE ACLU, THE NAACP
LEGAL DEFENSE FUND, THE
LEADERSHIP COUNCIL.
ALL THE WAY TO THE KATO
INSTITUTE AND THE SNUNSINSTITUTE
JUSTICE ON THE LIBERTARIAN SIDE.
IT’S A BROAD COALITION.
>> BEN, YOU WROTE AN OP-ED IN
USA TODAY AND CALLED QUALIFILY
IMMUNITY HARMFUL TO THE PUBLIC
AND DETRIMENTAL TO THE
REPUTATION OF GOOD COPS.
UNQUOTE.
TALK MORE ABOUT THAT.
>> YOU KNOW, THAT’S ABSOLUTELY
RIGHT.
I MEAN, WE NEED COPS THAT WANT
TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
THAT ARE WILLING TO BE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE, AND WHEN YOU HAVE
BAD COPS, THAT ARE NOT HELD
ACCOUNTABLE.
THAT DESTROYS THE COMMUNITY
TRUST IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
AND YOU CAN’T POLICE IFTHE
COMMUNITY DOESN’T TRUST YOU.
AND IT’S A TWO-WAY STREET.
YOU GET TRUST FROM THE COMMUNITY
IF YOU ARE WILLING TO BE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE.
BUT, IF YOU GOT A GET OUT OF
JAIL FREE CARD AND ANY TIME YOU
GO AND BRUTALIZE OR MURDER OR
WORSE, YOU JUST GET OFF SCOTT
FREE, THAT DESTROYS TRUST IN THE
COMMUNITY AND THAT MAKES IT
HARDER FOR THE HUGE MAJORITY OF
GOOD COPS TO DO THEIR JOB.
>> JERRY, I CAN UNDERSTAND THE
ARGUMENT OF SOME LAW ENFORCEMENT
OFFICERS.
I HAVE LAW ENFORCEMENT IN MY
FAMILY AND I CAN UNDERSTAND THE
ARGUMENT OF SOME OFFICERS WHO
SAY, WE WANT TO DO THE RIGHT
THING, BUT POLICE OFFICERS HAVE
TO MAKE SPLIT SECOND DECISIONS
IN A TIME THAT IT WOULD TAKE ME
TO THROW THE PEN AT THE CAMERA,
I COULD HAVE A SUSPECT IS
LUNGING AT ME WITH A WEAPON OR
PULLING A GUN.
AND I HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION TO
SAVE HIS LIFE TO TAKE HIS LIFE,
TO SAVE MY LIFE, TO TAKE SOMEONE
ELSE’S LIFE, TO RUN AROUND THE
CORNER TO STPOP A SUSPECT RIGHT
NOW.
I NEED FLEXIBILITY IN THE LAW
BECAUSE I’M HUMAN AND I WILL NOT
GET EVERYTHING RIGHT.
HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?
>> I THINK THAT’S ABSOLUTELY
RIGHT.
AND POLICE DO HAVE PROTECTION.
THEY HAVE PROTECTION IF THEY
MAKE DECISIONS THAT ARE
REASONABLE AND IN GOOD FAITH.
AND I THINK WHAT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY DOES, IS IT GIVES
IMMUNITY DOES, IS IT GIVES
BLANKET PROTECTION FOR IN COMP
COMPETENT POLICE AND POLICE
BREAKING THE LAW AND THAT IS THE
PROBLEM.
WE TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY,
BEN AND I ARE BOTH BUSINESS
PEOPLE, AND I CAN TELL YOU IN
BUSINESS OR IN ANY OTHER
INSTITUTION, ACCOUNTABLEILITY IS
THE KEY TO GETTING GOOD RESULTS.
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE
ACCOUNTABILITY NOTHING GETS
DONE.
NOTHING WORKS.
>> BEN, COULD I ASK YOU MORE
BROADLY ABOUT THE NATURE OF YOUR
ACTIVISM IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.
THE TWO OF YOU, YOU ARE NO
LONGER RUNNING THE COMPANY
DAY-TO-DAY.
BUT YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO USE
THE SUCCESS OF BEN AND JERRYS,
THE NAME RECOGNITION TO PURSUE
CAUSES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO
YOU, WHICH TO BE CLEAR YOU WERE
DOING THAT AS WELL WHEN YOU WERE
RUNNING THE COMPANY DAY-TO-DAY.
I HAVE TO NARC ON MY FELLOW
JOURNALISTS HERE ON THE TEAM, AS
SOON AS THE COMMERCIAL BEGAN,
RIGHT BEFORE YOUR SEGMENT, THEY
WERE CHATTING ABOUT THEIR
FAVORITE FLAVORS OF BEN &
JERRY’S ICE CREAM.
YOU HAVE A FOND PLACE IN
PEOPLE’S HEARTS.
WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HOW
CORPORATIONS ARE STANDING UP FOR
CAUSES, PARTICULARLY RACIAL
EQUITY, STANDING ALONG THE BLACK
LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT.
IT FELT LIKE A LOT OF COMPANIES
JUMPED ON THE BAND WAGON IN THE
LAST 12 MONTHS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?
>> IT WAS GREAT TO SEE THE
STATEMENTS OF BUSINESSES IN
SUPPORT OF JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS
AND EQUALITY.
YOU KNOW, NOW WE NEED TO SEE
SOME ACTION BEHIND THOSE WORDS.
IT’S TIME TO MOVE FROM PROTESTS
TO POLICY.
AND THAT’S WHAT QUALIFIED
IMMUNITY IS.
IT’S A POLICY THAT STEMS FROM
THOSE PROTESTS.
AND I MEAN, WE ARE NOT TALKING
ABOUT SITUATIONS WHERE POLICE
HAVE TO MAKE A SPLIT SECOND
DECISION.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A SITUATION
WHERE A GUY IS DRIVING BY ON A
BICYCLE AND WITHIN SIX SECONDS
OF THE POLICE SEEING HIM, THEY
SHOOT HIM.
TO DEATH.
I MEAN, HE WAS NOT A THREAT TO
THEM.
THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING OH, IT’S
THEM OR ME P YOU MOW, HE IS
ABOUT TO -- NO, AND THEY -- WE
HAVE A BOOK COMING OUT THAT HAS
17 EXAMPLES.
17 STORIES OF THAT KIND OF
THING.
WHERE SOME LITTLE KID IS IN THE
MIDST OF SOME CHASE, WITH A
ROBBERY SUSPECT AND THE COP
TELLS HIM TO GET DOWN ON THE
GROUND AND HE GETS DONE ON THE
GROUND, AND SOMEHOW OR OTHER THE
COP DECIDES THAT HE WANTS TO
SHOOT THE KID’S DOG?
BUT HE MISSES THE DOG AND SHOOTS
THE KID AND HE GETS OFF SCOTT
FREE.
THIS IS NOT SPLIT SECOND
DECISION MAKING.
THIS IS JUST, YOU KNOW,
INCOMPETENCY, I HAVE HAD
INCOMPETENCY OF EMPLOYEES THAT I
HAD.
THEY GOT FIRED.
>> RIGHT.
RIGHT.
BEN COHEN, AND JERRY GREENFIELD,