-Welcome back to the show. -Thank you.
Always happy to be here.
And congratulations on another hit.
This time, in a different space, telling a different story.
Um, it's a story that many Americans are familiar with,
but I don't think told like this.
-The Central Park Five is what they were named, -Mm-hmm.
called by the media, the press at the time.
And you've changed, just the title of the film alone,
about these-these five boys who were accused
of raping a jogger in Central Park.
You changed the title-- Everyone assumed it would be called
The Central Park Five, but you changed the title,
When They See Us, why?
You know, The Central Park Five, I felt, was a political moniker,
dehumanized them, it made you not actually hear
and understand, and know who they are.
Uh, they were five boys, Yusef, Antron, Raymond,
Kevin and Korey, who were just boys in Harlem
on a spring day in 1989,
and they were kind of ripped out of their youth.
I mean, it was the last day-- April 19, 1989--
was the last day that they were ever boys again.
So around this whole thing of "boys will be boys,"
-the Kavanaugh stuff, -Right.
it was happening while we were shooting this,
and I-I couldn't help but wonder why are some boys allowed
-to, you know, roughhouse and act stupid, -Right.
and, um, other boys are instantly criminalized.
And so that's a bit of what we examine.
And so that's larger than just the case
of The Central Park Five, so I wanted to ask the question:
"What do you see when you see us?"
It really is a painful story
because it's these five boys who, at the time,
many people believed were responsible for this rape,
-and they pleaded their innocence. -Mm-hmm.
And in the story, I mean, we watch how they're coerced
into-into giving these testimonies.
And what was interesting was--
When you were filming the series, it was literally--
it's being released around the 30-year anniversary
of when Donald Trump, just as a private citizen,
ran an advertisement calling for the executions
of these five young men.
Do you think that that-that sentiment,
do you think that that, in some way,
shifted the public's perception on how to deal with these boys?
I mean, he was a part of a-a wave
of people of privilege who were immediately starting
to shape the story, starting to kind of indict these boys.
Um, um, what they were really upset about was, um,
uh... the whole idea of criminality
and making sure that they separated
their own criminal tendencies...
-Right. -(chuckles) ...from, um...
from what they thought was happening on the street,
that they had clear definitions,
a us and a them environment.
Um, Pat Buchanan was also saying crazy stuff at that time.
There were a lot of prominent, uh, white folk
who were out there acting buck wild,
-to be honest with you. -Right. (chuckles)
And, um... But this is of particular interest
because he called for their deaths.
He, um... he took out full-page ads
in four New York City papers.
Um, he spent $85,000,
which was a lot of money at the time-- it's a lot of money now--
and he-- this was all before their trial, you know?
-Wow. -It was two weeks after, um, the-the news broke.
And so this-this film asks you to think about the news.
You know, at that time, 89% of the--
of the headlines and the articles written
about this case didn't use the word "alleged."
-89% didn't use the word "alleged." -Wow.
So it was just this kind of rush to judgment
on the part of politicians, you know,
um, the press, but also private citizens
who had the wherewithal to shape the conversation.
When you told the story,
you chose to tell it in a very specific way.
You know, it is a limited series,
and so you've broken it into pieces.
But what you've done is, like, in each piece,
focused on a-a certain element
of who the boys were dealing with, you know?
It's-it's dealing with, uh, the world that they're in,
dealing with prison, dealing with their families,
dealing post-prison, et cetera.
Why did you tell the story that way?
Yeah, I mean, it's the story of this very famous case,
the Central Park jogger case, but also,
you know, running alongside it is-is a story that will,
by the end of it, you should be fully versed
in all of the different nooks and crannies
-of the criminal justice system. -Right.
You know, part one is dealing with police interrogation,
police aggression, precinct behavior,
-the stripping of rights of some citizens, the second... -Right.
Because-because these boys were questioned without their parents
-at first. They were... -Without their parents, without...
48 hours without parents,
without food, without rest.
Um, the second piece is all about the court system--
judges, juries, defense attorneys,
um, uh, prosecutors, and bail.
You know, this whole idea that we really have
-a debtors' prison in this country. -Mm-hmm.
You can-- you can pay to get out,
or you can be poor and stay in.
And that's really who these criminals are,
-people who just couldn't pay. -Mm-hmm.
The third part is about juvenile detention--
that we're still locking up kids in this country,
sometime in ad-adult spaces--
and then post-incarceration--
how we treat formerly incarcerated people
-as second-class citizens in this country. -Right.
Um, so the-the whole breadth of that is explored,
as well as incarceration itself.
So, by the time you finish watching this four-part film,
you will know about the Central Park Five,
but you'll also know, um, a lot more
about how the system that we pay for,
-as taxpayers, how it works. -Right.
It's interesting because this story starts off
with five boys who are accused of something
that they confess to, and that, for many people, was it.
-They said, "Well, they confessed." -Mm-hmm.
You know, and in the story, it's interesting how you show--
you don't even explain-- you just show how easy it is
to just want to get out of a tough situation
as-as these kids did.
And were it not for the DNA evidence,
their lives would have ended in prison.
You chose to work with these boys,
who are now men, on the film.
That must have been a really emotional experience,
not just for yourself, but for them,
because they're reliving many of the things
that robbed them of their childhoods.
You-you put some systems in place, and you...
I believe you even had therapists
or counselors on set.
Like, wh-why was that so important to you,
and-and why did you want them to be a...
like, a real part of the story?
Well, I want the men to be a part
of the story because it is their story, and my key purpose
in this was to honor them, was to give them voice.
-You know, their voices were robbed from them. -Right.
Those confessions were not their own words.
They were coerced to say those things.
So we haven't really heard from them,
so that was the goal in the piece.
But in doing it, I was showing a lot
of really challenging stuff
-that I'm asking actors to participate in. -Mm-hmm.
Your mind, as an actor, knows that you're doing something,
but your body doesn't know what fear, adrenaline,
-that you're pretending. -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right? So you really have to, uh, help safeguard the actor.
When I did Selma, I asked actors to do, I mean, murders,
beatings, riots, all kinds of things,
and, um, and I didn't...
And I heard from them afterwards
-that they had a problem kind of letting go. -Oh, wow. Right.
So I said, "If I ever do this again, I'll make sure
I have someone to create a really safe place for them."
So, they could call a counselor, they could see a counselor
at the end of the day if they needed.
It's a beautiful story that you've put together.
I mean, it-it puts you into a different space.
We know you for Selma,
we know you for 13th, we know you for...
Well, now people will know you for, uh, When They See Us.
Um, when we look at Ava's career, I mean,
we know A Wrinkle in Time is another side of who you are.
How do you... how do you work between those worlds?
Because, on one hand,
you are telling some of the most gripping,
uh, violent and disturbing stories.
On the other hand, it's, like, fantastical, and it's beautiful.
Do you find a way to reset and just be like,
"All right, now I'm gonna switch to that"?
Is there, like, a journey? Do you have to go to Hawaii
in the middle and then come back? What do you do?
Yes, I would like to go to Hawaii in the middle.
Um, you know, I... For a long time, I really resisted
being social justice girl. I didn't want be the, uh...
-You know, I didn't want to... -Why?
Well, because I didn't want to be put in a box.
-I'm already in a box. -Got it.
Hollywood thinks, you know, I'm supposed
-to do a certain thing. -Yes.
I wanted to kind of show
that I could do a little bit of everything,
but as I've become older,
and I think more mature about it,
uh, I know that, you know, this work is important,
and I can do it, and, um, I think I... I do it well.
And, um, so I'm okay with being social justice girl.
But you have to call me "Social Justice Woman," though.
-(laughter) -And then, I'm okay with that.
-(laughing) -I'll call you whatever you want. Ava DuVernay,
-thank you so much for being -Thank you.
-on the show again. -Thank you.
-(applause and cheering) -When They See Us,
an amazing limited series premieres May 31 on Netflix.
Ava DuVernay, everybody.