[Christian] Justice.
[Christian] How can you get justice if you don't have atonement?
[Christian] Do you know what that means?
[Christian] Do you know what?
[Christian] Do you know—we need atonement.
[Christian] How can you be free?
[Christian] How can you be just—
[Mansur] Give him five minutes to explain that, alright?
[Christian] —God, if he
[Mansur] Is that fair?
[Mansur] Give him five minutes to explain it.
[Christian] No, no, no.
[Mansur] Because it's a big subject.
[Christian] If someone rapes my daughter
[Christian] and the judge comes and he says,
[Christian] "Okay, I'll forgive this raper."
[Christian] Then that judge is an evil judge.
[Christian] There has to be atonement.
[Christian] The Islamic view does not offer any atonement at all.
[Christian] What it offers is a God who says,
[Christian] "I can forgive this. I couldn't come down that."
[Christian] There's no such thing as justification.
[Mansur] No, give him more time.
[Mansur] It's not enough.
[Mansur] Take time.
[Christian] With a Christian worldview.
[Christian] you have the opportunity to have both.
[Christian] You have justification through Jesus Christ as the atonement,
[Christian] and you also have forgiveness.
[Christian] Those two things cannot be if you don't have atonement.
[Christian] And Islam does not provide that.
[Christian] It does not provide that at all.
[Mansur] So you talked about how Islam
[Mansur] doesn't offer justice and forgiveness.
[Mansur] Talking about coherence.
[Mansur] To define justice is to give the right way to do.
[Mansur] When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden,
[Mansur] according to the Bible, you expect them to acknowledge
[Mansur] their mistake and ask God for forgiveness.
[Mansur] And you expect God to forgive because He's forgiving.
[Mansur] There is no mention of God forgiving Adam and Eve.
[Christian] There's animals who had to do the atonement in the first book.
[Mansur] No patience.
[Mansur] I am not even finished 30 seconds and he's interrupting.
[Christian] But you cannot say things which are wrong
[Mansur] Excuse me.
[Christian] —for Christianity and I am not allowed to
[Mansur] Okay.
[Mansur] When I said Adam and Eve—
[Mansur] Okay, did Adam and Eve—
[Mansur] Okay, forget the two minutes.
[Mansur] Interactions.
[Mansur] Did Adam and Eve ask God to forgive them when
[Mansur] they committed eating of the apple or the tree?
[Christian] Pardon?
[Mansur] Did Adam and Eve ask God sincerely, humbly, willingly?
[Christian] No.
[Mansur] Isn't that what I said?
[Mansur] There is no mention of that in the Bible.
[Mansur] So I was correct.
[Mansur] So let me continue that.
[Christian] But that's not the point.
[Mansur] I am establishing a point!
[Mansur] So here you expect them who are walking
[Mansur] in the presence of God to realize the
[Mansur] mistake when they committed the mistake.
[Mansur] There is no mention of that.
[Mansur] There's no mention of God forgiving them.
[Mansur] My next point is this.
[Mansur] These two individuals committed a
[Mansur] willful disobedience of God's command.
[Mansur] Do not eat of the tree or whatever, and they fall short.
[Mansur] They disobeyed God.
[Mansur] I wasn't there.
[Mansur] I did not take part in it.
[Mansur] So I am in no way responsible for that action.
[Mansur] Why do you believe in this original sin and atonement?
[Mansur] This is totally unjust.
[Mansur] Because to punish me for the sins
[Mansur] of my father is totally, totally unjust.
[Mansur] I need to be punished for my own action.
[Mansur] Ezekiel, chapter 18 in the Jewish Bible is a
[Mansur] refutation of the whole concept of original sin
[Mansur] of forefather's sin passing on to the children.
[Mansur] It totally dismantle and demolishes this concept that,
[Mansur] you know what, if you are a murderer,
[Mansur] your son can be punished for that.
[Mansur] Totally dismantles it.
[Mansur] You may have not read it.
[Mansur] Ezekiel, chapter 18.
[Mansur] The whole chapter is a complete blatant reputation of this belief.
[Mansur] Was I guilty of the crime that Adam and Eve commit?
[Woman in background] No.
[Mansur] Thank you.
[Mansur] Was I guilty?
[Christian] No, it's not the point.
[Mansur] Answer is—what is your answer?
[Christian] It's not the point.
[Mansur] What is your answer?
[Mansur] Was I guilty?
[Christian] If you're not guilty, it wouldn't matter.
[Mansur] No, question is, am I guilty?
[Mansur] Was I guilty?
[Christian] No, you're not guilty.
[Mansur] Right.
[Mansur] So is it fair and just to punish me
[Mansur] if I'm not guilty of a crime someone did?
[Christian] No, of course not.
[Mansur] Thank you.
[Mansur] So let's now move on to Trinity.
[Mansur] We've established that your belief...