Translator: Anton Cool Reviewer: Michele Gianella
HF: For those who don't know about it,
can you briefly tell us what basic income is?
ES A basic income is the base of income for the basic needs,
and the thought is:
that these basic needs
must not be strictly bounded to some conditions;
it's necessary to have it for everybody;
and it's much better to give it free
as basic, unconditional, for everybody.
It does not depend
on what you are doing, how much you are earning,
its not dependent on if you are working or not,
employed or not employed, living alone or living in the community.
It's just focused on the individual, focused on the human being,
not circumstances, not functions.
And that, I guess, is a necessary basis for the challenges of work we have,
and the challenges in the world we live in now.
HF: You've been very successful with the media hype,
you just recently set the Guinness Book World Record for the largest poster,
you dropped 400,000 Swiss francs in the square in Bern.
E.S.: It' was eight million, to represent 8 million residents in Switzerland,
and there was about 50 tons of money.
It was a golden mountain,
and it was to show that the money is there.
It's not about the money:
it's about the unconditional, it's about abolishing ideologies,
and to make a carpet for the people, a carpet for life,
[a symbol] that we can all [afford to] spend up to this amount.
H.F.: My favorite picture from that is the man vacuuming up the money
E.S.: Yes, again, it was not for free.
it had to come back to the National Bank.
H.F.: Do you have any figures for us about how many people are for it?
E.S.: Yeah.
Everybody is for it, in the whole world. But they don't know it yet.
And..
(Laughs)
(Applause)
H.F. How many people want it?
How many people would work?
How many people wouldn't..
E.S.: Ah, OK.
That is really a question, and we also wanted to know that,
and so we did a survey, last December in Switzerland.
There are many [surveys] in other countries, and many pilot projects:
but the result of this
was that two percent of the people
will quit their job.
So, thanks God, it's good for them,
they don't stand in their factory or in their company,
and make something bad.
And eight percent will think about it.
So at least ten percent of the people will quit the job,
or think about it,
and that does not mean they won't work oo anything.
They'll work on other things.
And all the rest, 90 percent, want to continue working.
And ask yourself:
will I stop working if my basic needs are taken care of?
So, not you yourself, but it's always the others.
More than 50 percent there said they want to have more time
for the children, for families, for social things.
50 percent of the people said they want to have more time to study.
And 40 percent of the people said
they want to have more time for free working, voluntary work.
So there's a demand by everybody to do something good for others,
and that's the reason to work:
to have a responsibility, to do something good for others.
And 13 percent said they want to change their job.
22 percent said, they wanted to become a freelancer, self-employed.
H.F: You mentioned jobs that people don't want to do.
What does this mean for people doing the dirty work?
E.S.: An unconditional basic income?
H.F: Yeah.
E.S. They can say no.
That's the first, and that's brilliant.
You see, freedom is not always about being able to do what you want
but [also being able to] know what you really don't want to do.
You cannot be forced to do anything or everything for money,
and that's a brilliant thing.
And the question, who cleans the toilets or who would do this work
what especially we both don't want to do.
But the others, you know,
it's an old thought of the time of slavery,
the others have to do the work I don't want to do but it has to be done.
So think of it, be a bit creative:
You have to pay it better!
If this work is necessary and its valuable,
it has to be appreciated.
An unconditional basic income
creates a huge incentive to create better work conditions,
more appreciation, more equal "eye-level".
And it's not so easily not to listen to the other,
not to be aware, not to care to the others.
But it's a more equal floor.
It's an equal flow in society,
and that means a lot by better work conditions
and, as I say at least, why not pay this better?
H.F.: This all sounds great.
But - everybody I've asked, they all love the idea,
but then they don't know how it's going to work.
So what do you say to the skeptics?
E.S.: Yeah, precisely, what I want to say is
you have to start the campaign, the idea, the discussion.
Everybody is invited, we will create it together.
It's not a fixed and finished model and just a calculation.
That's the first point:
to believe, to trust in what we are thinking,
and that we can do it.
And then it's for me, related to direct democracy.
There's a lack in the world of the role of democracy:
we have to renew it.
And then, how does it work - financially, for example -
is that you can imagine,
if there's an unconditional basic floor for everybody,
then wages can decrease,
about the [basic income's] amount.
So wages and all other incomes
do no longer have the task to [fund] livelihood,
they no longer have this task to ensure existence.
That's taken over by an unconditional basic income
we give each other.
And by this, when wages fall,
salaries in the public sector and the private sector,
also social benefits securities can decrease about this amount.
Then costs of labor decrease.
Then costs of production decrease.
And then for example, if you have a price for this,
I don't know what this is, maybe three francs?
And because of lower costs in the other incomes,
- because they can decrease about this amount
of an unconditional basic income that everybody has -
the cost will fall, and they fall about what?
About that amount that's no longer included, contained,
in the existing incomes.
And once this part becomes free,
the room it makes in the former price structure
goes to finance the unconditional basic income,
in the same way it finances today's incomes
so you know every income, all incomes are financed by the prices,
and it will become a proportion in the prices,
for the unconditional basic income,
and a smaller proportion for the other existing incomes.
That's the principle, so there are many details:
we have a few weeks time to discuss later.
But let's first look at it.
H.F.: We've talked about the people, we've talked about the idea.
How does the money feel about this?
E.S: The money?
Oh, yeah.
That's an interesting question, therefore - I went in a bank,
I wanted to know how does the money feel.
Everybody is keen to get money.
But nobody is asking what we are doing with the money,
how awful it is for the money
to be misused for all these horrible things.
And I think, for me, even if it sounds funny,
freeing the money is a thing for artists to do,
or even for bankers,
so creativity and art are in every job.
Looking to the money, doing good with money
may sound a bit crazy,
but at least, why not?
Let's have a look how we create it.
You know, we don't know how we create money
and we think that's a miracle, that's far away.
No, it's understandable: we create money
by giving trust and giving the right to act on initiative to each other.
That's the creation of money, and that means
it's not so much a part of the economy,
it's much more a democratic right.
H.F.: Do you have any closing remarks you'd like to add before we end?
E.S.: Yes, of course, many.
(Laughs)
We just started a little view in this ongoing movement.
And what I want to say is that it concerns everybody.
It's not the rich for the poor, not feudalism.
It is a new challenge and requirement
to rethink things, to be responsible.
It's yet another one step towards more freedom and responsibility
as we have had in history every time.
It's not new but it is a step in history,
and it's as difficult as it was to understand
that we really should abolish slavery,
that there is such an astonishing idea as human rights,
and that we do this awful thing as allow everybody to vote,
and to decide, as a society, to introduce direct democracy.
So when you have a look in the past,
[at] what our grandfathers and grandmothers did,
you see they fought for what we have.
And we have to go a step further on.
And it's the same, like introducing democracy,
and the other things I mentioned.
To take this risky step
to an unconditional basic income for everybody,
to give this trust in society, and to strengthen civil society,
opposed and in partnership to what's going on in the economy,
but in a way, independent.
To say, who's at the top of it?
We are, the people are, you are.
It's all about you, and take this to you.
To lead society and not to be lead by the system.
H.F.: Well thank you Enno, it's been a pleasure.
E.S.: It was a pleasure for me. Thank you.
(Applause)