- Yeah, my wife's been trying
She's always trying to get me
in the small group stuff.
And I always felt like
small groups were
kind of matchmaking
for wives to try and
get husbands to talk to one another.
- Hey, I'm Jason
and we're about to go meet
my buddy Roger.
So technically,
I actually met him first
on Instagram
and tracked down one of his books.
It's called
"We Stood Upon Stars"
and I realized pretty quickly
that it was actually going to make me
a way better friend
and then dad
and husband.
I think when you meet him
you'll feel the same way.
- (Roger) So what is it that you
catch in this pond?
- (Jason) So it's, I've actually not fished here yet,
but the guy at the fly shop told me this is where
people come to get carp.
- (Roger) Oh really?
- (Jason) It should be pretty fun.
- Yeah. I haven't done that before.
That'll be cool.
- (Jason) You tell a bunch of
really fun fishing stories
in your book.
Is there one of them
that's your favorite?
- There's one that I have
that's become a favorite
cause of the buddy I fish with.
I have this buddy named Chuck
that I actually
kind of got to know recently-
most of my friends,
I've known for a really long time
so it's hard for me to make friends.
I can be a little bit
closed off with that.
And so, but this guy, Chuck, it's, you know
it's one of those typical things
where my wife and his wife were
in a Bible study together
and they were kind of
like doing the husband matchmaking
that our wives love to do.
And so she's like
"Hey, you know,
Chuck's super into fishing and
you know you'll probably like him."
I was like, "Well, what kind of fishing?
Is he a bait fishermen?
Is he a fly fisher?"
- (Jason) "Was he a carp fishermen?"
- Yeah, is he a carp fisherman? (chuckles)
- So anyways, I get to know
this guy Chuck.
Cool guy, a firefighter.
You know, we hit it off
a little bit,
but still nothing super deep.
Just kind of, you know, whatever.
Just kind of cordial.
But we decided to go on this fishing trip together.
So I'd taken him over to a spot.
He's actually just learned how to fly fish.
So I'm going to kind of teach him some things
with fly fishing.
I take him to one of my spots.
I actually take him to my secret fishing hole
which is kind of a big step on the first day.
But we're going to camp
and fish.
And he actually hooks into
a really big Brown,
like I was actually a little mad
because I hadn't caught anything
and he brings it all the way up
to our feet and he then
kind of loses it.
- (Jason) Oh, man.
- (Roger) It was kind of my fault actually,
because I was supposed to go get the net
but I tripped and fell in the water.
And so I didn't get the net back in time.
So we lost this fish.
Yeah, there's a certain amount of time
you just got to put in
with a guy
before you can kind of open up.
But I'd been kind of struggling
a little bit with work.
You know, I was like trying to
figure out how to balance everything
that I was doing.
We got to the campfire that night,
and we were just kind of out
in this really cool spot.
It's just the two of us
and yeah, he's a fireman,
so I let him build the fire.
And so, we just started talking.
He actually started asking me
some pretty poignant questions
about how things are going with my wife
and, you know, all that.
And at first I thought maybe
it's a set-up.
Like his wife told nasty things
because my wife said something
at Bible study.
But he was just genuine.
He's like, you know
he just was genuinely concerned or,
you know, he didn't know
if there was something to be concerned about
or not, but he was generally
just interested in how I was doing.
So anyways, we just kind of
get into it.
And it turned out to be
just one of those nights where
kind of by the end of the night,
you know, we'd kind of aired
out some things about
how I was doing with my marriage.
And he was telling me
a little about his,
and you think about that whole fishing trip
and that was kind of a turning point
in some parts of my marriage.
And it really took another guy
to kind of call me out on that.
And it took some time
for me to even trust that guy to begin with.
So I tell that fishing story.
You know, it's fun to tell
the fishing and all the rest
but really,
it's about friendship.
And, what does this look like?
And how, do you have a friend
in your life
that can call you out on the crap
that you're doing
and pull you back into what's right.
- (Jason) Yeah.
- The other thing I really appreciate about him
is he really goes - when we go home -
He, you know,
he agrees with me
these fish that we caught
were always way bigger
than they really were.
So he's able to kind of keep
up the illusion of me being a good fishermen.
So that's good.
You know, it's hard to make friends
as we get older;
it's just not the same.
And so where do you start?
Where do you begin?
You know guys from work perhaps,
but small groups are great.
You're starting with some type
of common experiential, you know, thing,
or you're starting at least
with a common base of all right,
well, at least we have some things
about what we believe
that are similar.
And you sit together
and, you know,
it's awkward usually at first.
Especially where there's couples involved.
But where else do you start?
And you say, start there.
And it's a great place
to get to know a few people.
But you got to go beyond that.
So you start maybe a small group
or, wherever you start talking.
But then you just,
"Hey, let's go grab some tacos"
or "Let's go grab some coffee" or something.
Then that might go further.
And then it's like
"Hey, let's go fishing or surfing"
or whatever.
And eventually,
a genuine thing will start to emerge.
I think with men,
you get comfortable by doing
you hear this all the time
about the shoulder to shoulder activities.
That's important.
The shoulder to shoulder activities don't make
for a good friendship.
- (Jason) So, you're doing stuff together.
- Doing stuff together.
Going fishing, doing whatever.
And that's where
actually that's where most men
I think stop.
But it's face to face
where friendships really develop
into something meaningful.
But one tends to precede the other.
So when Chuck and I were talking,
one of the things
that I was kind of telling him about
was just the struggle I was having and feeling
like I was very significant
doing anything significant at work.
And it just didn't feel like I was-
kind of the idea we shared earlier
at the truck,
about what manhood looked like.
You know,
so I was sharing some of that with him.
And, you know,
the struggle about
am I being successful as a man?
Am I, you know, is this working?
You know I think the biggest mistake we make
is we tend to think about our identity
and what we do vocationally
and what we do for work.
You know, that kind of thing.
You know, when people ask you what you do
that's always the first thing that comes to mind, right?
- (Jason) Yeah, yeah.
- But really, what we do vocationally
for work is more of an expression
of our masculinity,
but it's not definition of it.
And it's just like fishing
you know, is an expression of what we do as men,
but it doesn't define us as men.
Really kind of back to what really defines us as men,
is these relationships we have.
We have relationships with our kids,
relationships with our wife,
with our buddies,
like my fishing buddy, Chuck,
with our fathers
and how we reconcile with our fathers.
And ultimately, you know, beyond that, you know
it was our relationship with God.
So until we can get those things right
and succeed in those things,
I don't think we'll ever feel like success as men.
Because if we keep measuring
by the things that we do,
there's always gonna be a bigger fish.
And there's always gonna be a bigger deal.
There's always going to be something
that will keep us from
reaching our full potential as men.
- (Jason) No, the fish, they got away.
- Yeah exactly. That Brown trout
that Chuck missed that keeps getting bigger
by the year.
(laughs)
- (Jason) All right, man.
- Dude, good to hang out.
- (Jason) Been fun.
I'm excited to get this camera out of your face.
- I'm kind of ready for that to get out of my face,
for sure.
- (Jason) So that was Roger.
- Hopefully you've enjoyed this
as much as we have
and you guys have had some good laughs
and good fun, but also learned
a lot about what it means to be a man.
It's a lot more
about the relationships that we have.
That relationship with women,
with your wife, with your girlfriend.
With your dad,
or maybe it's a father figure,
a mentor - somebody that you spend time with
that you can look up to.
The relationships that you have
with your kids
or with other kids.
Maybe you're mentoring somebody.
And then obviously those relationships
we have with our friends.
And of course,
it's our relationship to our heavenly father,
to God, that makes any of this work.