Have you ever turned down a ghostwriting job?
I've turned down many.
Is there some commonality behind why you said no?
Pathetic story.
So I'm a professional journalist and writer
and I've been writing for 35 years,
and my name's been published all over the place.
When people ask you to describe what you do for a living right now
how do you go about describing it?
Well, I tell them that I write books.
Sometimes I ghostwrite them.
First one was a book called 'The Happiest Refugee'
that I did with comedian Anh Do.
I did a book with a footballer called Nathan Hindmarsh, who played rugby league.
Another book with the son of a man who was a convicted drug smuggler.
That book was never published.
And then after that, I did a book with a man called Manny Wax
who used to be an orthodox Jew who had been sexually abused at school
and this was his memoir about his struggle.
When I called to ask if you wanted to do this conversation about ghostwriting
what was the biggest concern you had?
That I might say something that I would regret.
Well let's see if we can work on that.
Let's start at the beginning.
Yes.
When you agree to, let's say ghostwrite a book
what's the starting point?
Well, the starting point is to find out why the book is being written and published in the first place.
Because then I get an understanding of what their motivation is.
So has the person been dragged into this project?
And so in the case of Nathan Hindmarsh,
his manager saw that Nathan was finishing his career
and thought it would be a good thing to see him up for afterwards.
So I try to find out
Is it their idea?
Do they want to set a record straight?
Do they want to become famous?
Because then you know what sort of story they're trying to tell.
How much they want to meddle
in the work that you do with them.
How cooperative they'd be and how big their ego is.
What are the red flags?
In retrospect, now having done it a few times.
The red flags are
whether the person coming to me has very strong ideas about how the book should be written
even though they're not a writer, they've come to me because I am a writer
and then I think I'm going to have a lot of trouble.
So it's actually easier when somebody
doesn't think that they can write.
So the first book you ghostwrote and it really was ghostwriting,
your name did not appear on the front cover of the book,
was Anh Do's book.
Yes.
How did that process start for you?
Well I was approached by a publisher.
I had to, I guess be vetted.
I met Anh.
We got on very well.
We had a number of interviews.
That would be every couple of weeks. I would do research in between.
He would talk to me about what he wanted to talk about.
They came back to me and asked me to do a number of small changes and additions, which I did.
-And that's a fairly standard way. -Yeah.
And so how different is the that book you handed off to what ended up on the shelves?
Well I think the story is the same.
The style of the book is quite different.
Some of the
episodes and anecdotes are quite different.
Anh's gone in and recast revised some of those.
Quite a lot of them I guess.
So he's working off the blueprint that I gave him.
I was thanked in the acknowledgments.
I understood what the terms of what this project was.
And as a ghostwriter
you are
not the star.
So if these things are negotiated and understood at the beginning then there's no shocks about that.
What about when articles started to be written about the fact that the book was ghostwritten?
Well that was not a problem for me
because I knew what I'd done.
It really wasn't an issue.
Until I guess, there was
elevated media coverage when the book started winning some awards.
And so at that moment
Anh comes out and says that, something in the vicinity of less than 10% of the book was your work.
So how does that feel?
Well putting a numerical value on something that was a collaboration I think it's a little bit
forced.
Because,
whatever he did
he did in collaboration with what I did.
So he was not writing from scratch.
Anh was trying to maximise he's creative and authorial
role in the process of the book being written.
And do you feel that's fair?
It would've been
more generous not to try and
minimise my role so publicly.
I do believe there is an interview where you called him a fucker.
If I'm not mistaken.
You seem like you've very much made your peace with it.
How did you arrive at that point?
I was not particularly happy but I took as a learning experience
about how I would negotiate books after that.
And after that you decided, at least for the next few books
you wouldn't be a silent partner anymore.
Well I specified upfront in the negotiation and the contract
that I wanted it to be a co-author
where it would be so and so with Michael Visontay.
Do you get paid more for a book where your name does not appear
than a book where your name does appear?
-Makes no difference. -Makes no difference?
No.
So really what it comes down to is whether or not that person
wants to be regarded as the soul architect of their story or not.
It often depends.
If somebody has been in a creative career
then they more often would want to be seen as the author of their story.
There's an interesting angle I guess in Nathan Hindmarsh's book where you sort of reveal
that he had quite a significant gambling habit.
Yes.
Where did you first kind go, "oh my goodness that's a thing."
Because I don't think it was very well understood before that book.
No well it was not known at all.
I think the only people that knew about it were Nathan and his wife,
possibly his manager.
Well we were just having a conversation about what he would do after training
and how he would go up the club with his friends and he said he was a bit shy.
After the steaks,
his friends would go and talk to the girls and he would go and have a go on the pokies and I said
"Oh okay, how often did you play?"
And he said, "Oh, every night."
And then one question lead to another and
slowly built up a portrait of
a very powerful addiction.
Why do you think he was happy for it to come out?
So once it's out he can draw a line underneath it?
Well he never said to me,
"Michael, stop I don't wanna talk about this."
He was happy to keep talking.
And so at the end of our first conversation about him when I turned of the tape recorder I said,
"Wow, Nathan that was a bit of a shock."
You've got a big story there and you're happy for this to come out?
And he said, yeah.
Yeah.
They know what they're saying.
How is that moment when your
subject calls you and goes,
"This is so much more
invasive and raw then I ever expected to be on the page,"
how do you talk people through that moment?
Well I say to them,
"This makes you and your story much more compelling.
If it's going to be an issue
with family and friends who you've mentioned
you need to consider how they may view it."
And then they get a big shock.
Because they may of said something
and not thought about,
"Well in 10 years time my 3 year old son's gonna be 13
and then he's gonna read it.
And is he gonna like reading this and seeing this about his father and am I going to be able to deal with that?"
And that's something that quite a few people don't actually think about at the beginning.
So you don't just write, you don't just interview
but in my case,
that then takes your role and involvement from just being a writer to being a counselor and confidante.
And then the line of responsibility and engagement between the two of you has shifted
and you may not be sure about,
where do I draw the line now?
Do you think the art of ghostwriting is
sufficiently respected?
I think it is amongst the people who do it
and amongst the people in the publishing community.
I think it's
I don't know if it's not respected, I don't think it's very well known.
With that experience as a writer,
do you think your life is an interesting story?
I think it's vaguely interesting but I don't feel the need to write it as a single book.
I think everybody's life is interesting if you can burrow into it deeply enough.
Thank you so much for your time.
Pleasure Marc.
Nice to talk to you Michael.