Nicaragua!
You probably haven’t heard about how crazy things have gotten
And China has a hand in it
Welcome to China Uncensored,
I’m Chris Chappell.
So, I interviewed my first terrorist.
At least, that’s what the dictator of Nicaragua,
Daniel Ortega calls him.
At the Oslo Freedom Forum,
I sat down with Felix Maradiaga.
He’s an academic and political activist in Nicaragua.
Back in September 2018,
he spoke at the UN Security Council about how the Ortega regime
brutally represses Nicaragua’s people.
Afterwards, the Ortega regime issued a warrant for Maradiaga’s arrest.
They accused him “organized crime and financing of terrorism.”
Riiiight.
In fact, Maradiaga was attacked by a mob of 50 Ortega supporters—
and had to be hospitalized.
Now I’m betting a lot of you watching
probably don’t know much about the situation in Nicaragua.
The country rarely makes it into the US news.
But there is one country that really cares about Nicaragua—
and that’s China.
The Chinese Communist Party has its fingerprints all over Nicaragua.
And Felix Maradiaga joined me in Oslo to give the rundown.
Thank you for joining us today, Felix.
Thank you for the invitation.
Absolutely.
So, for those watching who don't really know much about Nicaragua,
can you tell us what the political situation is like there?
It's very complex at this point.
The Daniel Ortega regime
has closed any possibility for peaceful protest.
There are about 400 people in prison,
just for exercising their constitutional right to protest.
Basically, we live in a police state.
But isn't he a president?
Doesn't that mean it's a Democracy?
Well, that's the problem with dictatorships.
I call them dictatorships 2.0;
because they have been able,
many of them,
to bend the rules,
which have been developed for Democracy,
to pretend they are Democratic Regimes.
And Daniel Ortega came to power in 2007 again,
due to a very strange reform in the Constitution,
that allowed him to be elected.
But in any case,
in 2011 he was re-elected against the Constitution.
So, our argument,
as we have presented to the organization of American states,
is that he is not a legitimate president under our Constitution.
Well, I coined a term that I use to describe the leader of China.
Not quite a president, not quite a dictator.
A “presitator”.
So, if you would like to use “presitator” to describe Ortega,
I'm perfectly happy with you using [crosstalk]
I think it works perfectly,
and that should be a red flag for Democracies around the world.
I like to use the painful situation of Nicaragua
to make a case for Democracies around the world.
That when Democracies do not really deliver
what the average citizen wants,
it opens a door;
an opportunity for authoritarian regimes to emerge.
So, what's China's role in Nicaragua?
The situation in Nicaragua is quite strange,
in terms of the relationship with China.
Nicaragua is one of the very few countries around
the world that actually has diplomatic relationship with Taiwan,
not with China.
On the other hand, at the political level,
it's well known that Nicaragua has ties with China.
And, in fact, the flagship project,
as Daniel Ortega argues,
in terms of foreign investment;
it's a canal that is supposed to connect both of the oceans.
And that is not an investment from Taiwan,
but actually from China.
Which, once again, is strange,
because we do not have, as a country,
a formal relationship with the People's Republic of China.
It is clearly a move by the Chinese regime as well,
because a project of such size could not be pursued
without the support of the Chinese government.
They're using, at this point,
a company registered in Hong Kong to pursue the project.
So, you think China may be trying to “woo” Nicaragua?
To abandon Taiwan in favor of the Communist Party?
I think that, ideologically,
that has been a long term project of the Sandinista party.
Ideologically, the Sandinista party and China,
they've always had a lot in common.
When Democracy was re-established in Nicaragua in 1990,
during the sixteen years of Democratic transition that we had,
Nicaragua developed a close relationship with Taiwan.
But I have to say that, unfortunately, even Taiwan,
at least in relationship with Nicaragua,
has behaved in a very unfortunate way;
in the sense that Taiwan,
despite many requests,
is one of the very few countries
that continues to openly support the Daniel Ortega regime.
So, we are seeing China and Taiwan
competing for Daniel Ortegas' attention.
How is the Sandinista party ideologically aligned with China?
Well, as you know,
the Sandinista party emerged as a classical Marxist party in the 1960s.
And in 1979, it became a successful,
political military movement that defeated the dictatorship of Somoza.
Now, the new version of the Sandinista party,
that came back into power under Daniel Ortega in 2007,
continues to have the rhetoric of Marxism and Socialism;
but in practice, is a very pragmatic regime.
It's just one more authoritarian regime
that will use rhetoric and one side just to attract allies,
but will basically use any tools, any ally,
to pursue its objectives.
Well, it's interesting you say that;
because I know the, sort of,
Marxist or Communist rhetoric is often used in Latin America,
where there is a lot of promises made,
but it always seems to end in authoritarianism.
Why does that line of reasoning still keep getting used?
That's a very interesting question.
But I think that a big component of that line,
as you clearly define it,
is that there is sort of romanticism;
Utopia of socialism being closely tied to egalitarian principles.
And we have to be very candid in saying that Latin America
has been one of the most unequal regions of the world.
There is a big issue of poverty.
There is a big issue of class struggle in Latin America.
And of course,
the narrative of Marxism continues to be very compelling,
at the narrative level.
But in practice, it's a system of dominance
that doesn't really provide freedoms for the individuals.
And in countries where levels of education are so low,
that type of populistic rhetoric becomes really dangerous.
So, I think that, in the case of Nicaragua,
as in many other underdeveloped parts of the world,
the only tool to fight that kind of lines is through education.
When people are well informed,
and when people have the basic tools
to pursue employment and health and basic rights,
populism, and particularly Marxism, doesn't have any chances.
So it's basically,
in Latin America it's still a fertile ecosystem
for this type of narrative,
because of our inequality and low levels of education.
Well, so with the Nicaragua canal,
I know that seems to have stopped.
Correct?
Yes.
We have seen that many of the initial parts of the projects,
such as, for example the environmental impact studies,
the meteorological studies as well.
And some other engineering studies,
they have been stopped at all.
Many environmental activists argued,
from the very beginning when the project
was first mentioned about five years ago,
is that this project was never an authentic,
legitimate investment.
It was always a project that had something fishy,
for example, money laundering.
For example, something that is quite clear;
a project designed to, basically,
take away land from indigenous communities,
and from the farmers and the campesino communities of Nicaragua.
In fact, what we see today in Nicaragua,
it is closely connected to what is known as The Campesino Movement;
which are the land owners that mobilized in 2013, 2014,
against the Chinese project.
This movement that emerged,
as a land right movement,
is closely connected to the peaceful protests
that we see in Nicaragua today.
So, the Chinese investment in the canal.
That didn't do anything to benefit the people of Nicaragua?
No, not at all.
Not at all.
And if you read the law that was approved in record time,
so it took very few hours to approve.
One of the strangest laws, in terms of investments.
The Canal Law has been elevated to the rank of a constitutional law
in order to create, almost, a state within a state.
So, let's assume that the project will evolve.
Basically, the canal area would have been
outside of the tax authorities of Nicaragua.
It would be outside of the judicial authorities of Nicaragua.
So clearly, the Daniel Ortega regime
was trying to develop something with the Chinese
that went beyond a normal investment.
And the land owners actually perceived that,
as that's the reason why they mobilized.
This project never benefited Nicaraguans.
It actually affected and destroyed
many of the environmental areas of our country.
Well, now that it's been stopped,
does that benefit the people of Nicaragua?
Well, the people of Nicaragua have always said that
we are a country that has open arms to foreign investment,
as long as these investments are clean,
are legitimate, are under the rule of law,
are based on the principles of fair trade and free markets.
That's what the Nicaraguan people believe.
I mean, we are a country of entrepreneurs,
and a country that has suffered many wars,
and we understand that investments are important.
However, the experience with the Chinese has been very unfortunate.
The way in which some teams of Chinese engineers
have intervened in private property rights,
the way in which the project has been developed
with complete lack of transparency,
is something that raises a lot of flags.
So as we have argued,
together with many environmental activists
and grassroots leaders and local communities,
is that the way this project was designed,
it's far from a project that could bring development to Nicaragua.
So, is there concern about debt trap diplomacy?
Yes.
And it's also a concern of a project that was assigned,
as many other projects in Nicaragua
that have been developed with Russian money,
with Venezuelan money from either the period of Hugo Chavez,
or Nicolas Maduro.
It's just another project to enrich a family.
Another project just to enrich an authoritarian regime
that has amassed money as no other regimes in previous times.
So, it's not a project aimed at developing the country
in terms of attracting employment,
and other types of clean investments.
Does China provide any military equipment or training?
As I said, Nicaragua is a country
that does not have a formal relationship with China.
So, at least officially, the Chinese are not working;
in terms of bringing official corporations
to the military or to the police.
There are unofficial accounts,
and we have strong suspicions
that there are some relationships in terms,
for example, of espionage,
and in terms of collaboration with the regime.
But it has been very hard to actually document
and prove those suspicions.
Okay.
What about things like censorship and surveillance?
I know there's been, sort of,
a push for more internet censorship,
more surveillance, facial recognition technology.
Is any of that coming from China?
It's part of the conversation.
In fact, prior to the canal investment project
coming into the public eye,
there was discussion of a satellite
of private investors from Hong Kong;
which are closely connected to the same group of people
who are investors around this very strange character,
Mr. Wang Jing.
Who, based on independent media research,
is someone who has been, for years,
connected to the Chinese military.
We have raised this issue to the international community,
and it's quite sad that Nicaragua
has not been able to attract international attention.
What is happening in Nicaragua,
with the Chinese presses and with the Russian presses.
And just to make a comparison,
when we first raise a flag above the Russians,
very few people believed it.
And now there is a very big Russian presence in Nicaragua,
and it started just as the Chinese.
Just as rumors;
as something that was not very easy to prove.
And suddenly, the Russian presence in Nicaragua
is deeply ingrained in the political system.
So, we want to continue to insist that,
despite the fact that we're not seeing concrete Chinese presence
in terms of massive investments,
or presence in terms of surveillance technology,
it is something that is not farfetched at all.
So, this is something that could be
a National Security Interest for the United States?
Absolutely.
And so you, as an opposition leader,
how does all of this affect you?
Well, not as an opposition leader,
as a citizen,
as a human rights defender.
Many years ago, back in 2006,
I'd published a paper called China's Side Principle.
My argument at that time,
based on reviewing many documents from China
on how the Chinese government trains their military,
their intelligence officials, their diplomats,
is that China is not willing to face the United States directly,
but through the sides;
using what I would call the side principle.
And this was back in 2006,
looking at the way that China is strengthening its presence at that time,
in countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador;
and Nicaragua is just part of that strategy.
What really concerns me is the lack of attention
that this issue has in Washington.
I think that, with all due respect,
Washington experts on Latin America
are probably too consumed
and too focused on many other important issues.
But China is a direct threat,
not only to the safety of citizens like myself,
who believe in free press and who believe in private property
and who believe in human rights,
but also to any other individual in the hemisphere
who believes in Democracy.
And this, sort of, lack of foresight on the part of Washington.
That goes back several administrations?
It's not just the Trump administration?
It was Obama, Bush, Clinton?
It's been going on a while?
It's been going a while.
And what I believe,
from the perspective of what we do in Nicaragua,
in addition to my political,
my human rights work,
we have been working for over 16 years in public policy.
And we have developed several papers on this particular issue,
and we have arrived to the conclusion
that the Chinese mindset is a long term mindset.
I mean China looks at public policy in terms of 50, 60, 70,
even 100 years from now.
And the Western perspective,
it's not only a US problem,
it's a problem of the West.
We see a public policy in terms of presidential terms, you know?
So, it's important that those of us in the Western Hemisphere,
who believe in the fundamental principles of Democracy:
Freedom of the press,
freedom of speech,
and in general the Declaration of Human Rights,
need to understand that China is not a traditional threat,
from the perspective of the Cold War,
or anything like that.
But it's a threat to freedom,
because China is supporting authoritarian movements
and authoritarian regimes that actually threaten
the principles of the Western Hemisphere.
So, what hope is there for people of a country like Nicaragua,
where their authoritarian dictator is being backed
by an even more powerful authoritarian regime?
Well, our hope is that democracies around the world
could work together and strengthen our common values,
or also our common strategy in protecting human rights.
Last year, September 5th, 2018,
I was able to present the case of Nicaragua
in front of the U.S. Security Council.
It was very unfortunate that, clearly,
Russia and China were completely opposed to
what we suggested at the U.S. Security Council;
when we presented that the issues that are happening in Nicaragua,
with the close ties of Ortega with Venezuela,
with Russia and China,
are also a threat that is not only domestic or national in Nicaragua;
but it's a threat to the stability of Central America.
What we are seeing is a pattern
in which authoritarian regimes around the world
are closely working together.
You see China and Russia collaborating.
We have seen the presence of Iran in Latin America,
[crosstalk] very close to Nicaragua.
We see Venezuela.
And we expect that the democracies around the world,
and particularly the United States,
as the most solid democracy of the industrial world,
actually take the leadership that is expected from the U.S.
So, its hard to get support in the U.N.
when Russia and China play such a large role in it.
Indeed.
And that is a problem in which the U.S. system has been designed.
Once again,
it comes back to the basic principle of human rights;
when farmers in Nicaragua have been displaced
because of Chinese investments,
when indigenous communities in Nicaragua
are being displaced of threatened in their community rights
because of the Chinese presence.
These are not only a problem
related to local grassroots communities of Nicaragua.
It's actually a threat to the stability of a region,
and to the fundamental principles
that have been developed within the Western Hemisphere,
particularly on the democratic charter of the O.A.S.
This is something that we are also elevating to the O.A.S.
And we are expecting the leadership of the U.S. to also be present,
not only at the U.N., but at the original forum,
such as the O.A.S.
So, what happens if China is left unopposed in Latin America?
I think that that is the same question,
and not to exaggerate,
it would be the same question that many people asked many,
many decades ago;
when Germany was not seen as a problem
during the first years of the Nazi regime.
We have seen that when any authoritarian regime
that has resources, power,
global presence are left without a balance of power,
democracies are challenged,
and human beings pay a huge price.
So, I hope that not only the United States, but the world,
would understand that having such a massive global power
that is not a democracy is a problem.
Not only for my country,
which is a small country in Central America,
it's actually a problem for the world.
Have we seen a case in which two major global powers
can cooperate if one of those powers is not a democracy?
I think that's the biggest question.
This is not only an issue of Nicaragua,
it's an issue for the global stability of Earth.
All right.
Thank you very much for joining me.
Thank you.
I'm glad that we spoke about something
that is not very much addressed.
Unfortunately.
Once again, thank you very much.
It's been a pleasure, okay.
Absolutely.