>> Stephen: I'LL GET IT DOWN EVENTUALLY.
HEY, WELCOME BACK, EBBED.
HE HAS ACTED IN OVER 80 MOVIES, INCLUDING "TRAINING DAY,"
"BOYHOOD," AND "FIRST REFORMED."
HE NOW STARS IN A SERIES HE CREATED AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCES
CALLED "THE GOOD LORD BIRD."
PLEASE WELCOME TO "A LATE SHOW," ETHAN HAWKE!
ETHAN, THANKS FOR BEING HERE!
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S A PLEASURE.
>> Stephen: WE'LL GET INTO THIS A LITTLE LATER IN THE
INTERVIEW.
I JUST WANTED TO START OFF BY SAYING HOW MUCH I'M LOVING "THE
GOOD LORD BIRD."
IT'S BASED ON A TRUE MAN, IT'S CRAZY AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S
TARAJI, FUNNY, A LOT TO TALK ABOUT.
FIRST, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEATER BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE A
THEATER GUY.
TOBY NOMINATED, DIRECTED BROADWAY.
WHAT DID YOU MAKE TO HAVE THE THEATER OF THE DEBATE THE --
WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE THEATER OF THE DEBATE THE OTHER NIGHT?
HOW WOULD YOU DECONSTRUCT THAT AS A DIRECTOR?
>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
MY FIRST RESPONSE IS IT KIND OF SEEMED LIKE THE MOMENT IN "STAR
WARS" AT THE GENERALLY REVIEWLS HE'S A CENTHOR .
SO THAT'S MY FIRST THOUGHT.
YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT CINEMA.
IF IT WAS THEATER, IF DAVID MAMMOTH DID 14 LINES OF CRYSTAL
METH, STAYED UP ALL NIGHT AND WROTE A SHORT PLAY ABOUT THE
DOWNFALL OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BUT COULDN'T GET DINERO
AND PACINO SO HAD TO GET TWO UNDERSTUDIES FROM BURT REYNOLDS
DINNER THEATER AND SHOVE THEM ON AND SAID, GO!
THAT'S THE THEATER I THOUGHT IT WAS.
>> Stephen: THERE ARE STILL UNDECIDED VOTERS OUT THERE.
AND I'M FROM SOUTH CAROLINA.
I'VE GOT FRIENDS BACK HOME WHO ARE FANS OF THE PRESIDENT.
DO YOU STILL STAY IN TOUCH?
YOU HAVE ROOTS IN TEXAS.
DO YOU HAVE FRIENDS BACK HOME WHO SUPPORTED THE SNPT.
>> -- SUPPORTED THE PRESIDENT?
OF COURSE.
MY FAMILY'S FROM TEXAS AND WHENEVER WE GET INTO THIS THING
THAT WE THINK SOMEBODY ELSE IS EVIL, WE'VE LOST OUR PATH,
REALLY.
THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS WHAT I HEAR FROM MY FAMILY IS IMMENSE
SADNESS, EVEN FROM THE FAMILIAR MEMBERS THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP,
ABOUT THE LEVEL OF MISINFORMATION AND HOW MUCH THEY
ARE PREYING ON PEOPLE'S FEAR AND GREED, AND THERE'S A KIND OF
SADNESS COMING FROM MY FAMILY THAT HE'S NOT WHO THEY HAD HOPED
HE WAS.
AND IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY LIKE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT
IT'S -- IF NOTHING ELSE, I HATE TO SAY IT, THERE'S AN OVERRIDING
SADNESS.
>> Stephen: I AGREE.
THERE'S A SENSE OF GRIEF AND LOSS FOR A LOT OF AMERICANS EVEN
FOR PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE THEY SEE HIM
AS SOMEONE WHO'S PRECIOUS TO THEM BEING ATTACKED.
>> YEAH, YOU CAN'T BE A SERIOUS CHRISTIAN AND RESPOND TO SOME OF
THE THINGS THAT HE SAYS, NOT REALLY.
YOU CAN'T.
YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP.
HE'S BROKEN DOWN POLITICAL PARTIES.
YOU KNOW, MY FAMILY MEMBERS -- YOU KNOW, GEORGE H.W. BUSH WAS A
VERY SERIOUS PERSON.
THAT'S A FORMIDABLE HUMAN BEING WHO'S EDUCATED AND DEDICATED HIS
LIFE FOR WHAT HE BELIEVED WAS THE BETTERMENT TO HAVE THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND HE DID A LOT OF GREAT THINGS.
SEE, THAT'S WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUTRABOUT REPUBLICANS AND DEMO
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT RIGHT NOW.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE FANNING THE FLAMES OF OUR
INABILITY TO SEE EACH OTHER.
TAKE THE PANDEMIC FOR EXAMPLE, WE'RE KIND OF GIVEN THIS FALSE
ARGUMENT LIKE WE HAVE TO DECIDE BETWEEN THE ECONOMY AND OUR
HEALTH, AS IF -- WE'RE GROWNUPS.
WE'RE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS AND PARENTS AND WE HAVE TO DO BOTH.
WE HAVE TO KEEP PEOPLE HEALTHY AND KEEP THE ECONOMY GOING.
IT'S A FALSE ARGUMENT THAT ONE SIDE OF THE TEAM IS FOR
SOMETHING, AND IT CREATES THIS CHAOS OF, YOU KNOW, DUALISTIC
THINKING THAT MAKES EVERYBODY SMALLER THAN WHAT WE REALLY ARE.
>> Stephen: ALL OF THAT IS A PER FECK LEADUP SO THE SHOW THAT
YOU'RE ON HERE TO TALK ABOUT, THE GOOD LORD BIRD, WHERE YOU
PLAY JOHN BROWN.
HERE IS A PHOTO OF YOU PLAYING JOHN BROWN.
I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THIS FAR IN THE SHOW YET BUT YOU WILL EVENTUALLY
LOOK LIKE THIS IN IT, RIGHT?
SO HERE'S A GUY WHO IS IN A TIME OF CHAOS, TOOK HIS BIBLE VERY
SERIOUSLY, WAS FINE WITH DIVIDING PEOPLE.
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, WHO WAS JOHN BROWN?
>> OKAY.
WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
JOHN BROWN WAS A NONVIOLENT ABOLITIONIST UNTIL HE WAS ABOUT
51 YEARS OLD.
HIS GRANDFATHER FOUGHT WITH GEORGE WASHINGTON.
HE HAD A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE CONSTITUTION AND ITS
RELATIONSHIP TO THE EQUALITY OF MAN KIND.
SO HE BECAME A STAUNCH ABOLITIONEST.
SO JOHN BROWN WAS THIS MAN'S GRANDSON.
HIS FATHER AND HE WAS AN ABOLITIONIST.
WHEN HIS SONS WENT DOWN TO SETTLE IN KANSAS, BECAUSE KANSAS
WAS A TERRITORY, RIGHT, AND THIS IS A BRIEF HISTORY, BUT KANSAS
WAS A TERRITORY, AND IT WAS ABOUT TO BECOME A STATE, AND IF
IT WENT PRO-SLAVE THAT WOULD THROW THE SENATE ONE WAY, AND IF
IT WAS A FREE STATE IT WOULD THROW THE SENATE ANOTHER WAY.
THE ABOLITIONISTS WERE MOVING TO KANSAS TO VOTE FOR SLAVERY.
AND POOR PEOPLE IN MISSOURI, THEY'RE SETTLING THEM TO KANSAS
TO VOTE FOR SLAVERY.
THIS TURNED INTO BLOODY KANSAS.
PEOPLE STARTED ATTACKING JOHN BROWN'S SON.
AFTER A LIFETIME OF BEING A NONVIOLENT ABOLITIONIST,
SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO FORCE PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH.
HE WAS A CALVINIST AND A VERY SERIOUS CHRISTIAN WHO TOOK THE
IDEA WE WERE MADE BY THE SAME MAKE TORE HEART AND HE WENT TO
REMIND EVERYBODY AND WAS WILLING TO GET INTO A FIGHT.
TO HE'S GREAT SURPRISE -- I PLAYED THE MAN, I THOUGHT HE WAS
GOING TO GET KILLED QUICKLY.
TO HIS GREAT SURPRISE, HE WAS GREAT ADD GUNFIGHTING.
HE LED A RAID.
HE TOOK OVER THE NATION'S LARGEST ARMORY, HARPER'S FERRY,
WITH A BUNCH OF BLACK AND WHITE FOLKS WORKING TOGETHER, THEY
TOOK IT OVER HOPING TO INCITE A REVOLUTION.
HE FAILED AT THAT BUT WHAT HE SUCCEEDED TO DO WAS TO WAKE UP
AND SHAME THE WHITE CHRISTIAN NORTH AMERICANS, YOU KNOW THE
AMERICANS OF THE NORTH.
AND ABOUT 16 MONTHS AFTER HE WAS HUNG, THE CIVIL WAR STARTED.
>> Stephen: THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY IN SOME WAYS A VERY
DARK STORY, INCREDIBLY DRAMATIC STORY.
IT'S ALSO FUNNY AT THE SAME TIME.
HOW DID YOU -- WHAT DID YOU INTEND -- I KNOW YOU INTENDED.
WHAT I MEANT TO SAY IS DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU COULD GET AWAY
WITH THIS TO MAKE JOHN BROWN NOT ONLY A DRAMATIC SORT OF PROFECK
FIGURE BUT ALSO AN EXTREMELY FLAWED AND FUNNY ONE AT THE SAME
TIME.
>> YOU KNOW THIS BETTER THAN ANYBODY.
IF YOU TALK -- IF YOU YELL AT PEOPLE AND PREACH AT THEM AND
TELL THEM THEY'RE WRONG AND TRY TO TEACH THEM WHAT'S THE RIGHT
THING TO DO, NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THAT.
IF YOU MAKE THEM LAUGH, THEY CAN SEE THE TRUTH OFT WHAT YOU'RE
SAYING AND DON'T FEEL ATTACKED.
AND THE GENIUS MAGIC TRICK OF JAMES McBRIDE, THE AUTHOR OF
THIS STORY, HE WON THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD IN 2013, IS HE MAKES
YOU LAUGH AND MAKES YOUR HEART THROB WITH LOVE AND HEALING OVER
OUR CON'S GREATEST -- OUR COUNTRY'S GREATEST WOUND.
>> Stephen: IT HAS BEEN SO LONG SINCE JOHN BROWN WAS HANGED
IN 1859, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS STORY SPEAKS TO IN OUR
PRESENT TIME OF RACIAL RECKONING IN 2020?
>> WELL, WHAT I HOPE IS THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE IS THAT OUR
COUNTRY HAS BEEN HERE BEFORE.
THE BLOOD HAS ALREADY BEEN SHED.
WE KNOCKED DOWN THIS DOORWAY.
THERE'S A LINE IN THE SHOW THAT McBRIDE WRITES ABOUT HARRIET
TUBMAN SAYS, THE DOORSTEP OF CHANGE IS OPEN, YOU KNOW,
FREEDOM IS THERE, WE JUST HAVE TO WALK THROUGH IT.
AND I THINK PEOPLE LIKE HARRIET TUBMAN AND JOHN BROWN AND
FREDERIC DOUGLAS AND SOJOURNER TRUTH, THESE PEOPLE WOULD BE
HEART BROKEN TO SEE THAT YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY HAVE TO MARCH, AND
THEY HAVE TO.
WE HAVE TO.
WE HAVE TO DEMAND SOCIAL JUSTICE.
WE HAVE TO WALK THROUGH THIS DOOR, YOU KNOW.
AND I THINK THEY WOULD BE SHOCKED.
NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WANTED THAT BLOODSHED ANYMORE THAN YOU OR I
DOSM NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WANTED VIOLENCE.
BUT WE ALREADY DID THIS, YOU KNOW, AND THE JOHN BROWN STORY
PUTS A MICROSCOPE -- YOU KNOW, THIS EXPRESSION EVERYBODY
THROWING AROUND, SYSTEMIC RACISM, JOHN BROWN, IF YOU LOOKT
AT HIS STORY, IT TURNS THE MICROSCOPE TO THE DNA WITH WHICH
THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT, AND IT'S GOT SOME DESIGN FLAWS, YOU KNOW,
FROM THE ZONING OF OUR CITIES TO OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM TO OUR POLICE
FORCE TO THE WAYTT THAT WE THINK AND TREAT EACH OTHER.
YOU KNOW, IT'S GOT SOME FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN FLAWS, AND IF
WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT AND LAUGH ABOUT IT AND SAY THE WRONG THING
AND FORGIVE EACH OTHER AND WORK TOWARDS IT, THEN THE DIALOGUE
KEEPS SHUTTING DOWN AND WHEN THE DIALOGUE SHUTS DOWN, NOTHING'S
GOING TO GET BETTER.
THAT'S MY THOUGHT.
THAT'S MY SOAPBOX.
>> Stephen: WELL DONE.
WELL DONE.
"THE GOOD LORD BIRD" PREMIERES SUNDAY NIGHT ON SHOWTIME.
ETHAN HAWKE, EVERYBODY.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH FORMER LEAD PROSECUTOR FOR THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION, ANDREW WEISSMANN.
♪ ♪