The big one that you said, though,
was Spotify and podcasts in.
I think personally, just from
being in the space, I love Spotify
for podcasts. I had one person
that I did a podcast with that
he had a huge Brazilian audience.
When I released the podcast,
everybody was asking him like, Oh,
where's it on Spotify in Iowa?
Normally, I'm like, here's the Apple
link. And they're like, no, where's
it on Spotify? So that one
just took off on Spotify.
Right. And the thing
I love about Spotify is
there's many things, but their
analytics are so much more in depth.
I can get so much more information
from their back end
than Apple podcasts.
The other thing, too, is, like you
said, people are there to listen
to music. It just makes sense.
It's a convenient like.
I don't know.
Fork in the road, like, oh, let me
go.
Listen, I have podcasts at the same
time, which that already existed
is a behavior like this is like an
important point.
And then podcasts
are essentially syndicated radio
like back in the day and people were
already used to going from
a pop station to NPR.
It's like you're not blowing
people's minds in like a bad way.
They're like, oh, cool.
I already understand this
experience.
They're just now on Spotify.
This is amazing.
And so you see it made complete
and utter sense because we in
one of our clients, we all what we
were really trying to push them
to to think that way,
not to think about podcasts
is just a way to put advertising
against sound, but instead
to think about it in terms of, well,
what is your audience, what would
they be doing that would be similar
to this? That would increase
actual listenership and
in time spent listening to podcasts.
So Joe Rogan obviously has a huge
podcast, right? Huge.
I know there was one
episode or two that I was listening
to and he was talking about how the
Spotify guys would come to him
and be like, hey, we're starting
Spotify. Podcasts like join the
platform. And he's like, what
are you going to do for me?
I'm just like, I'm going to be
bringing you so much on this
platform. So, yeah, to this day,
I don't think he's on Spotify.
And I think that's like,
hey, I've been on Apple and then
obviously he's on YouTube, does
really well in those spaces.
Yeah. But I think it's more of the
the Facebook model of things
where Spotify is just soaking
up everybody, all of the other
podcasts. So eventually everybody's
just going to have to be on that
platform regardless of.
Yeah, you want to be there or not.
In the last thing I want to say on
its here is that the fact that
Spotify already has in place ways
to monetize passively
to its creators.
So I don't know how that will look
for podcasters
and if podcasters will get paid for.
If you have so many downloads and
then if somebody has a premium
account, do they pay their
podcasters? But in the future, since
they already have that model, there,
be awesome if it's like that's
a thing. And if that happens
or if it's already happening, I
could see just Spotify overtaking
Apple in the podcast realm.
But I think Apple's just so huge
right now because they were first in
that space. But Spotify is just
so disruptive in podcasts
right now.
I agree. I am.
And you probably have a view on
this. I don't know where
I sit right now.
I feel like the podcast
market is much like,
frankly, the video market
for TV shows.
There are so many.
Yeah, and there's some.
One of my clients has
one of their shows is
connected to the number one outdoor
podcast like and nobody listens
to it.
It's saying it's so small because
there aren't many people in outdoor.
But then you look at Joe Rogan and
he has millions of people tuning in
to him.
And so we look at that market
and we're still like we're
still a little bit confused
because as much as people are
listening in the podcast, there's so
many more hours than any humans
could actually listen to it right
now. So, yeah.
Is it going to narrow itself down
into like TV, frankly, where
you have 10 podcasts that
matter to the world and the rest of
them are just like, yeah, micro
indie bands because if it devolves
into that, which I hope it doesn't
devolve into like, you know,
the you know, a terrible
version of ten terrible podcast
shows the census because when things
become mass market they tend to
devolve a little of rather than
become more powerful and beautiful.
And so if it devolves into that
it'll it'll unfortunately just
become those podcasts would probably
be the ones that receive the most
monetization.
They would drive the most subscription
value.
So it becomes almost like cable
network land now where if you own
ESPN, you drive a ton
of audience and a ton of value
because the market is narrowed down
from a thousand different people.
Talk as if you go and get a sports
podcast. There are tens of thousands
of them. Do you go to commentary on
a cable platform for news?
There's six channels right now.
Big ESPN, Fox Sports, Bubba,
blah.
You know, like the main ones.
There's obviously other ones that
are lower ones.
But if the market devolves into
that, then you know what's going to
happen.
Those 10 podcasts are going to
control the market, have the most
value and have the most help.
And they'll be a rotation just like
a normal. TV ones will fall out of
favor and new ones will emerge.
And that's usually driven by
consumption and behavioral patterns
in humans.
We looked at cable networks for a
client over 30 years.
And what you found is we went from,
you know, or really 60 years, you
went from zero cable networks to now
900 cable networks, but humans
only consistently watched three.
No matter what part period of time
you're super popular, you just said,
yeah.
And so when you step back on
podcasts, it's the same thing that
happened in the app store for four
when we spent a lot of time with
mobile gaming apps like there are a
million studios that popped up in
the wave of mobile gaming.
And then every day there is,
you know, I think a cameraman
with the peak number wasn't, but it
was thousands of new mobile games
every day being published globally.
The reality is no one has a thousand
mobile games on their iPad or their
phone or any EM.
And it's a rotation in a handful of
games. If you look now and you went
back and mapped casino games
and then obviously took a Candy
Crush kind of game and then
something like a fortnight or
now the new call of duty mobile or
something like that.
It's always sort of similar because
there's much options is you give
people.
We just don't actually like that
many options.
And over time, markets evolve.
So that piece of it is you have
to step back on podcast and say,
well, where do I think the customer
is moving?
Are they going to be consuming
100 to be a theme?
Yeah. And the end user.
The end user, because it's like,
alright, what where do I think
they're going to go?
Do I think that people's daily
habit is going to turn into five
podcasts a week because then you can
build up a market, you know, based
on that where if you say well no,
podcasts are kind of going to be
like you know, YouTube reaction
videos and there's going to be a
small market for them.
People are going to dig them for a
period and they might have like a
boom in a certain segment for a
second, but then the interest
will die down because something new
will happen.
And that's where we're going.
You know, I mean, there's a lot of
stuff not to be like weird
about it, but there's a lot of stuff
that somebody like one of
the big podcast businesses probably
looked at was, if you look at
syndicated radio and
the syndicated radio, you know
what that is versus normal radio,
whole networks corrects.
Now, if you think about this way
back in the day when radio was
coming up, you had a guy in there
on a microphone like we are now
talking all day and they would
rotate different deejays in.
And certain deejays like Howard
Stern got so big that they could
actually syndicate and he would
shop that that show.
And then it would appear on all
different markets, the whole nation.
And so we saw this evolution where
you went from small market
guy who's successful to
national God that's successful
or woman that's successful.
And then radio said, we're not going
to we're not going to have deejays
anymore. We're just going to use
syndicated host.
So Howard Stern became the,
you know, the 6:00 a.m.
to 10:00 a.m.
guy, even though he was doing it in
New York and California.
Right. Because you could get him and
he was consistent.
Everyone loved Howard Stern and
then, poof. You had a successful
show versus relying on some local
person who may or may not be funny
enough in L.A.
market.
So you could look about think about
podcast the same way they basically
went through what was radio, which
is people just talking and giving
news or talking about current events
or NPR telling stories.
And they chopped it up and said, OK,
this is a political block.
This is a drive time block, like a
Howard Stern jokes and like
fun, you know, funny interviews.
This is a sports block.
You know, CBS Sports with you hear
on the weekends on the radio.
That's syndicated radio.
It's the same thing as a lot of the
podcasts now.
It's just structured and distributed
differently.
And it doesn't have. With radio,
it's obviously controlled because
the FCC, in this instance, it's
not. You can get it anywhere.
But the I step back and go, well,
that's great that there's so
much volume out there.
But what are people really consuming
and listening to?
Everyday is just like
the movie business.
Like we pretend like there's a
million successful movie producers.
But, you know, 80 percent of the
movie ticket sales are from
a very small set of studios,
really four of them now.
And so the same thing, the podcast
market could evolve that way to
where you have a handful of
producers controlling the
marketplace and sort of
sorts sort of looks like that number
one for each segment.
Number one in sports, number one and
out door number one, a factionalized
one at number one.
And Joe Rogan, whatever you want to
call it, Joe Rogan just gets his own
genre. Exactly.
And you didn't see some of that
evolution now.
And that's why we're kind of we're
not sure where it's going to go,
because usually you'll see in terms
of top podcast, some of the
syndicated radio guys popping up
like NPR.
They're usually top as well.
People will go on and listen to some
of their stuff and
on podcasts. So it's like it's sort
of the same people.
Are these the people that used to
drive in their car and listen to
NPR or, you know,
CBS Sports or whatever?
They're just listening to it on a
podcast now or is this a new one?
CARSON Yeah, on a cart.
That's exactly right.
Podcast. I worry about this.
The last thing on podcast, I worry
about podcast only because it's
struggled a little too to generate
really hard growth and monetization
like the. Advertising piece of it is
tougher because you're doing
sponsorships up front.
And once once you're
once a sponsorship is recorded, like
I hear like Joe Rogan when I listen
to him or anyone's podcast and
sponsorships, you sometimes hearing
the same sponsor from like two weeks
ago, three weeks ago.
It's harder to suss in
new sponsors like what TV shows you
can rerun them and then put a
different advertising in each
break. It's harder with podcasts,
it seems like.
Well, it was. So the syndication
service, the ad uses LIPSON in the
lips. And once you hit
a certain mark, you can actually go
in and exchange out
your your ads on your
entire library, which
that's I know on the back end.
When you look at it
in the interface, it's like email
so and so at LIPSON to do this.
It's like, yeah, some like random,
some some guy at LIPSON that's like,
OK, you want to overhaul
your whole catalog.
Here's my job.
Like, it's just like, that's
amazing. Right?
Okay.
But I know that there are systems in
place in order to if you
have set up your podcast in a way
that here's the before
the podcast starts and here's the
break. We can take those out
of the empty threes and insert your
new new add your
new ad. So it it's refreshed
in that way.
The the end user
or I guess the content creator can
get more against the ads
that they're trying to sell.
That's great.
But I mean that again, that's just
like a little small piece of it.
Let me know what you guys think down
in the comments. Do you think
there's too many podcasts out there
and it's going to sink down into
just a couple?
Or do you think there's still room
to grow and podcasting will take
on a life of its own in the future?
If you want to see the rest of my
interview with Jason Anderson,
the founder of Choir.
I'll link it right here on the
screen.
And that's on my Passion in
Progress podcast page where I've
moved my full video interviews
to all right.
Till next episode.
I hope you guys are out there living
a life of abundance.