>>> WHY WERE WE WAVED OFF OF
THAT SO EARLY ON WHEN NOW WE ARE
BEING TOLD WE DON’T KNOW AND WE
SHOULD DO A THOROUGH
INVESTIGATION OF EXACTLY THAT?
>> MARTHA, I DENY YOU WERE WAVED
OFF OF THAT BY ME.
I WOULD SAY YOU WERE WAVED OFF
OF SOME MORE OUTRAGEOUS
CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT HAD NO
CATEGORICAL SENSE TO THEM.
BUT THE IDEA OF A LAB LEAK IS
ANYTHING THAT I THOUGHT WAS
IMPOSSIBLE.
>> SO YOU REMEMBER THAT
INTERVIEW HERE ON THE STORY
THEN?
NIH DIRECTOR FRANCIS COLLINS, HE
HAS RETIRED.
CONFIRMED THAT IT WAS PLAUSIBLE
THAT COVID ESCAPED FROM A LAB.
AS NEW INTERNAL DOCUMENTS
OBTAINED BY FOX NEWS FROM MONTHS
PRIOR REVEAL A CONCERTED EFFORT
TO SUPPRESS THAT IDEA FROM
MAKING IT INTO THE PUBLIC PER
PURVIEW.
>> JANUARY 31st, DR. CHRISTIAN
ANDERSON, A NOTED VIEWOLOGIST AT
THE SCRIPTS LAB TELLS FAUCI THAT
AFTER DISCUSSIONS WITH HIS
COLLEAGUES, SOME OF COVID-19’S
FEATURES POTENTIALLY LOOK
ENGINEERED.
JUST FOUR DAYS LATER, FIVE
AMERICAN BRITISH AND AUSTRALIAN
RESEARCHERS THAT WERE ALL ON
THAT FAUCI CONFERENCE CALL,
AUTHORED PRELIMINARY FINDINGS
THAT ABANDON THEIR EARLIER
PRIVATE BELIEFS THAT COVID WAS
LIKELY THE RESULT OF A
LABORATORY LEAK.
IT’S UNCLEAR WHAT NEW EVIDENCE
PROMPTED A DRASTIC 180.
BUT VARIOUS DRAFTS OF THEIR
REPORT ARE SENT TO FAUCI AND
COLLINS FOR EDITING AND
APPROVAL.
MORE THAN A MONTH LATER, WE NOW
LEARN DOCTORS CHRISTIAN ANDERSON
AND ROBERT GARY WHO WERE IN
CLOSE CONTACT WITH DR. FAUCI,
ARE AWARDED A NEARLY $9 MILLION
RESEARCH GRANT FROM FAUCI’S
AGENCY.
>> Martha: OKAY.
SO THAT IS A LOT TO ABSORB;
RIGHT?
IN AN E-MAIL FROM APRIL 2020,
FRANCIS COLLINS ASKS DR. FAUCI,
HOW THEY CAN, QUOTE, PUT DOWN
THIS VERY CONSTRUCTIVE
CONSPIRACY.
DR. REDFIELD IS JOINING ME NOW.
DR. REDFIELD, WELCOME TO THE
PROGRAM.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE E-MAILS?
WHAT STORIES DO THEY TELL YOU?
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, MARTHA.
AS A CLINICAL VERIOLOGIST, I
ALWAYS HAVE SAID I DON’T THINK
IT’S BIOLOGICALLY PLAUSIBLE THIS
VIRUS EMERGED FROM A BAT TO SOME
SOMER INTO INTERMEDIATE SPECIES.
THAT THIS VIRUS CLEARLY HAD A
DETOUR AND THAT DETOUR WAS BEING
EDUCATED ON HOW TO INFECT HUMAN
TISSUE IN THE LABORATORY.
I THINK THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH
THE E-MAILS AND EVERYTHING THAT
WE’VE JUST SEEN, EVERYTHING THAT
BROUGHT UP WHICH IS SO
IMPORTANT, IS REALLY ABOUT SET
CALL TO SCIENCE.
THE PURPOSE OF SCIENCE IS TO
HAVE RIGOROUS DEBATE ABOUT
DIFFERENT HYPOTHESIS.
I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED IN MY
LIFE WHERE THERE WAS PRIVATE
TELEPHONE CALLS AMONG SCIENTISTS
THAT HAD A DECISION ON WHAT
POSITION THEY WOULD TAKE
COLLECTIVELY.
AND TO SEE THAT POSITION
PUBLISHED IN A SCIENTIFIC
JOURNAL LIKE LANSIT INDIVIDUALS
LIKE MYSELF THAT HAD A DIFFERENT
SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS, SOMEHOW
HAD TO BE PUT DOWN AND VEERED AS
CONSPIRATORS.
I HAVE FIRM BELIEF THAT SCIENCE
EVENTUALLY WILL RESOLVE AND
SOLVE THIS MYSTERY OF THE ORIGIN
OF COVID.
IN ORDER FOR SCIENCE TO DO IT,
WE HAVE TO EMBRACE SCIENCE.
AND WHAT WE SAW HERE IN THESE
E-MAILS IS REALLY ABOUT
THEATRICAL TO SCIENCE.
>> THE QUESTION IS, WHY?
WHY WOULD DR. FAUCI AND
DR. COLLINS AS I ASKED HIM IN
THAT INTERVIEW, WAVE EVERYONE
OFF THE LAB THEORY.
AND YOU CAN SEE THEM TALKING
ABOUT DOING EXACTLY THAT IN
THESE E-MAILS.
WHY DIDN’T THEY WANT PEOPLE TO
THINK IT CAME FROM THE LAB?
>> WELL, I THINK THEIR
INTENTIONS WERE, IN THEIR VIEW,
GOOD INTENTIONS.
I THINK THEY BELIEVED THAT
SOMEHOW DISCUSSING A POSSIBLE
LEAK FROM A LABORATORY WOULD BE
DETRIMENTAL TO SCIENCE.
IN REALITY, THE WAY THEY
RESPONDED TO THIS, IN MY VIEW,
HAS BEEN DETRIMENTAL TO SCIENCE.
AND IT’S NOT JUST THE NIH
LEADERSHIP.
IT’S THE BROADER SCIENTIFIC
COMMUNITY THAT DECIDED IN A
REALLY ANTISCIENCE WAY, THAT
THERE WAS ONLY ONE WAY WE WERE
GOING TO LET PEOPLE THINK ABOUT
THIS.
THEY WERE CONCERNED THAT IF THIS
THOUGHT THIS MAY HAVE COME FROM
SCIENCE IN A LABORATORY, THAT,
THAT WOULD HARM SCIENCE.
AND THEY WERE TRYING TO PROTECT
SCIENCE.
>> Martha: DID THEY THINK IT
WOULD HARM SCIENCE?
OR DID THEY THINK IT WOULD THROW
SHADE ON THEM AND THEIR
RELATIONSHIP THAT THE NIH AND
FUNDING AND MONEY THAT WENT TO
THESE EXPERIMENTS, YOU KNOW,
JUICING UP THESE VIRUSES,
CORONAVIRUS IN THIS LAB?
>> WELL, THERE IS NO QUESTION
THAT THERE IS THAT COMPLICATING
FACTOR, ALSO AS YOU KNOW AS THIS
RESEARCH WAS FUNDED BY THE NIH,
BUT I REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT THE
REAL GOAL BEHIND THIS WAS A FEAR
OF HURTING SCIENCE AND THE POWER
OF SCIENCE AND THE ABILITY OF
SCIENCE AND WHAT IT CAN
CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY.
IN REALITY, THEY ACCOMPLISHED
THE OPPOSITE.
I THINK SCIENCE HAS BEEN VERY
HARMED BY THIS.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I’M STILL
GOING TO BE AN OPTIMIST THAT THE
SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY WILL COME
BACK TO EMBRACE THE PRINCIPLES
OF SCIENCE AND HAVE A RIGOROUS
DEBATE AND USE SCIENCE TO
UNRAVEL THE ORIGIN.
I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT DATA THAT
WE HAVE AND PRESENTED SOME OF
IT, THERE IS A LOT OF DATA THAT
HAS BEEN GATHERED OVER THE LAST
TWO YEARS THAT REALLY POINT THE
HYPOTHESIS THEY SUPPORT THAT
THIS VIRUS EVOLVED IN THE
LABORATORY.
AND THERE IS VERY LIMITED DATA
THAT WE’VE GOTTEN OVER THE LAST
THREE YEARS TO SUPPORT
DR. COLLINS AND DR. FAUCI’S
POSITION.
>> Martha: ISN’T IT DANGEROUS
TO IGNORE YOUR SIDE OF THE
THEORY?
BECAUSE ESPECIALLY NOW THAT WE
ARE DEALING -- WHEN YOU AND I
SPOKE, YOU SAID THIS VIRUS WAS
SUPER CHARGED IN THE LAB.
AND THAT IS WHY IT IS SO VEER
LENT AND SO ABLE TO SPIN OFF
THESE VARIANTS THAT WE ARE STILL
DEALING WITH.
DR. FAUCI IS STILL IN CHARGE OF
OVERSEEING THE HANDLING OF THIS
VIRUS IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND IF HE DOESN’T ACCEPT THAT
NOTION, DOESN’T IT MAKE IT
PRETTY HARM FOR HIM TO DICTATE
THE DIRECTION OF DEALING WITH IT
AND TAMPING IT DOWN?
>> YEAH, I THINK IT’S HARMFUL IN
THE WAY THAT IT’S THE MOST
HARMFUL FROM MY POINT OF VIEW IS
WHAT I PUT IN THE OP-ED IN THE
WALL STREET JOURNAL.
UNTIL THE LARGER SOCIETY CAN
DEBATE WHETHER IT HAS VALUE FOR
SOCIETY AND IF WE ARE GOING TO
DO IT, HOW WE DO IT IN A SAFE
AND RESPONSIBLE WAY.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS A
DECISION THAT SHOULD BE MADE BY
A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS.
IT HAS ENORMOUS IMPACT.
AND I DO THINK THE MOST
IMPORTANT THING IS WE HAVE GAIN
OF RESEARCH BEING DONE AROUND
THE WORLD.
AND WE ONLY USED TO HAVE TO
DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST A
PATHOGEN THAT CAME FROM NATURE.
NOW WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A
PATHOGEN FROM THE LAB OR NATURE.
>> DO YOU THINK DR. FAUCI SHOULD
BE FIRED?
SHOULD HE LOSE HIS JOB FOR NOT
RECOGNIZING THIS SIDE OF THE
EQUATION?
WHICH IS VERY SERIOUS AND LED TO
SERIOUS RAMIFICATIONS AROUND THE
WORLD.
>> WELL, I HOPE TONY WOULD
REFLECT ON THIS AND PROVIDE THE
SCIENCE LEADERSHIP THAT WE NEED
TO MOVE FORWARD.
I’M NOT GOING TO COMMENT.
I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR HIM
OVER THE YEARS.
I THINK HE NEEDS TO STEP BACK
AND NOT TRY TO SECOND GUESS AND
MAKE THINGS THE WAY THAT HE
THINKS THE WORLD CAN HEAR.
WE SHOULD JUST TELL THE TRUTH.