W: Jonathan, welcome to Waterstones.
JVN: Thanks for having me to Waterstones.
W: It's an absolute pleasure. After finishing your book,
I thought where do I begin when we sit down to talk about this book
It's very tricky because you talk about an awful lot of stuff in here.
I went back to an episode of Queer Eye
when you went back home to Quincy to see Miss Dooley at your school.
It's a very emotional episode
And I always sensed when watching it that there was probably more to it
than you could probably say in the programme
and it feels like in this book you are finally able to speak your truth
and say exactly what you went through as a child. And it's an awful lot, isn't it?
JVN: Yes.
W: Was it very difficult to sit down in the first place and start writing it?
Or had you reached a point where you felt that you had to write it?
JVN: Kinda both. I think I definitely felt
very strongly that I wanted to share my experience and I wanted to share
my experience of coming into this person that people have got to know on Queer Eye
and have got to know on Gay of Thrones or my podcast. But I was ready to be
more vulnerable and be able to
speak my truth so that I could more fully explain
and come into every situation I've been given
I think at the beginning of the success of Queer Eye and as I was experiencing
the big swell in my platform
I just think I was being a little bit... timid
I wasn't quite sure how much of my story I wanted to share.
I think once I realised how much suffering there is in the community
I felt like I needed to say that I don't always have it together.
I'm not always a beacon of positivity.
I struggle with all sorts of stuff and I felt like it's important to be honest and transparent about that.
W: You talk in the book about how your big fear was that people are used to seeing you in a certain way
on Queer Eye. Being happy, gregarious; and the big worry about sharing something about yourself
which is dark and dangerous in many ways
is that people might not like you afterwards. Will you still love me after I tell you all of this stuff?
There's a brilliant picture, or series of pictures, on the back of the book
these different facets of your character
they're very funny to look at but you talk seriously about
why you have these different facets to your character.
And part of it is to do with dealing with trauma.
that when something traumatic happens we have to put it somewhere
and then we also have different parts; now I'm being happy Jonathan
or as you were when you were younger, Jack.
And therefore these quite funny pictures
actually tell a quite sad story
which is about how you dealt with trauma
on your own for many years and you've used therapy a lot to be able to actually deal with it.
JVN: Yeah, I guess I would challenge that it's a sad story
because I think that everyone has a relationship to trauma.
One of my therapists always said there's big T trauma and little T trauma.
But also pain is relative. Everyone has a different experience and different relationship to pain.
And also it's my belief that everyone has parts. We all have experienced trauma in some way.
Some more sharp and acute and obvious than others.
But we have all felt rejection, we have all felt othered at some point in our lives.
And if you haven't, if you feel really strongly that you've never felt that way,
my gut says that you have a very stubborn part that refuse to feel rejection.
So we really all do have a multitude of parts that is within us.
But I do think that my particular parts are really entertaining
I actually have a lot of fun with them
There was a couple of bleak years, on and off there, and every once in a while
I do pop off a little bit. I think my irritated part - I don't write about that one as much -
I do have a little irritated part and every once in a while what one will just
*pop*
And then I gotta deal with that one. But I think it's really normal for people to have parts.
W: When you went back to Quincy and saw Miss Dooley you talked about being bullied there
You make a joke of it in the book but you can tell it was obviously very upsetting
You had to deal with that on a daily basis.
You talked as well about how for your community
that that is a daily problem. They're being othered, they're being marginalised, they're being stigmatised
I suppose in a way this book has motivated you to be far more vocal about some of those things
and I think particularly with your HIV diagnosis, you've become almost a spokesperson for that.
How do you feel about that? How does that responsibility weigh with you?
Because it's obviously really important to you that what's happening in America with HIV treatment
and availability; it's not where you would like it to be.
JVN: Especially in the US because of the dismissal of the HIV/AIDS Advisory Council in 2017
and the Trump administration's continued attack on Planned Parenthood which provides
over 700,000 HIV tests last year alone, that I did need to talk about it.
Especially as I wouldn't have known I was positive if it wasn't for Planned Parenthood
because I didn't have insurance at the time
and that was the clinic that I knew to go to that was where I lived and that I could access full STI screening.
In a lot of states the Planned Parenthood is the last place where you can access a full STI screening
And when you have to drive 3 hours if you're sexually active to just go get screened...
what does it mean if you have to go there every months
to go see your doctor and maintain your medication?
That's incredibly hard for someone that dealing with whatever you're dealing with.
Because in a lot of these states poverty is super duper high
discrimination is super duper high
mass incarceration is really, really high.
And so when you put all these things together, especially in the US ,
there is a perfect storm for HIV to be a constant public health threat and not get better.
W: We've touched on some of the things in your life which have been very difficult
and throughout your life you have had these various beacons of support
and I wanted to talk briefly about your mum
Also of course your co-presenters on Queer Eye who've obviously become close friends.
But I wondered how important it is to have support from them, support from your mum
not only in dealing with the things you've been dealing with in recent years
but also in putting these things on paper and sharing them with the world.
Well they couldn't have been more supportive if they tried.
Especially the other members of the Fab Five.
I mean nothing that is in this book is anything they didn't know after having known me for 36 hours
In Bobby's case, maybe 6.
Tan and Antoni probably like 8
And then Karamo probably like 12 hours after meeting,
they already knew the complete contents of what were in this book
because I'm kind of an open book. So they've been incredibly supportive and loving.
And my mom has been an unwavering source of support and feedback
regardless of whether or not I want to hear it which is a beautiful thing about parents.
My mom is just amazing.
I think really the four of us, or the five of us are...
we really want the best for each other
and I think that in ensembles of people that are successful
that is a quality that is very hard to encounter
And we all really cheer each other on
We really love being toge~ther when we are together
I couldn't have asked for a better group.
W: Going back to the beginning, that question,
will you still love me after I've told you these things about myself?
This would be a hard enough question if you were just simply telling a friend or a family member
but you have told the world
and any author will know that when you send your book out into the world
waiting for people's reaction to it is a really terrifying part of the process
How have you been dealing with that and how has it been to have people react to what you've shared?
JVN: Well, I've felt really super supported
and very much embraced.
and that has been very comforting.
I think that I have this annoying tendency to focus on negative things more than positive things.
which is a human condition issue
I interviewed a really interesting neuroscientist about that
It turns out we wired for love and acceptance
and when we experience rejection we're like...
"Eww!"
The acceptance and love feels like that's what's supposed to happen
and the other stuff is like 'eww, what is this?'
so we can get stuck.
But I really have felt resoundingly embraced
And there has been moments since, there have been Twitter moments where
I made a gorgeous Elizabeth Warren endorsement
So I have experienced a lot of rush to judgement negativity that stung
especially when I was really, really just super vulnerable and raw.
I think that also the space between the New York Times article coming out
on the Saturday and the book coming out on Tuesday was also something that was...
I needed to sit with my cats and my mom and be just like 'Ahh, this is so scary.'
But I have felt embraced and I've felt the response to the book has been so positive.
And also the outpouring of people who have reached out to me
that have shared with me how the book has helped them feel more seen
and less alone and all of the different ways that they see themselves in my story
makes it worth it.
W: Anyone who's seen you and the Fab Five on. Queer Eye will know you often talk about
being true to yourself. Which is sometimes easier to say than it is to do.
So as somebody who's read the book I just want to say thank you
for being so honest and putting it out there because as you say
for other people to read that and to see what you've been through I think will be a huge help.
JVN: Thank you