hello and welcome to ways to change the
world I'm Krishnan guru-murthy and this
is the podcast in which we talk to
extraordinary people about the big ideas
in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them my guest today was
until very recently the CEO of the
charity Save the Children before that
she had another fairly important job as
the prime minister of Denmark and before
that was the leader of the Opposition
she also happens to be married to the
Welsh Labour MP Stephen Kinnick so she's
well acquainted with Britain as well
welcome hello so much in fact that
Olivia's I am very well acquainted with
this country um I mean you sent your CV
sounds as though you were born to try to
save the world yeah but it wasn't I was
not at all well whether to come from I
don't know I grew up in the south of
Copenhagen which is wizz it's apart
where no one wants to go and no one
wants to live
hopefully it's changed now but back then
it was it was a place where we had all
the issues with immigration a cultural
clash and this was not a particularly
place where a former prime minister
would come from I grew up with my mum my
mum and dad got divorced and there was
no politicians whatsoever in our family
so so were you part of an elite were you
a middle class no no no add lead
whatsoever didn't know any politicians
didn't know anyone from the elite at all
and grew up very in a very modest
conditions actually with my mum
particularly when they got divorced the
money wasn't great so did she do she was
she was in a computer in computer
science and she got a degree very late
in her life as well she's an amazing
woman my mum and I think that sense of
trying to create a fair society comes
both for my mum and my dad and I
remember very clearly when I came home
from school which was just the local
school that I went through and said this
is unfair and the teachers are lit this
and that they would both say to me or
have you tried to change it yourself
some of them are very early age they got
installed in me that if you see
something which is not right or not fair
you have to try and change yourself and
to what extent is that a national
character is
I mean we in Britain I just think yeah
everywhere in Northern Europe
Scandinavia is kind of generally sort of
quite liberal lefty social democrat you
know high tax more egalitarian is it
true it is kind of true I mean we are
different from many many other places in
this world now I had the opportunity to
travel to many parts of this world and
see people and meet people and be in
different countries and there is
something about the Nordic countries
which is different because we don't
accept a country we don't accept big
inequalities we think it's not fair we
talk about it a lot and we have
developed this welfare state where
people pay a lot of tax but what they
get out of that is it's a fairy it's a
fair society and a welfare state that
actually is a safety net for many many
people and and gives a lot of
opportunity as well so that was why I
was able to break out I got an education
I got supported by the state and to me
to a large extent the fact that there
was a support system in the in the
welfare state made me or gave me the
opportunities that I are used to become
to go to university to do great things
later on like fun things and also become
Prime Minister I mean when you say you
know we don't accept inequality yeah we
think it's unfair I mean to what extent
is that we that we really everybody you
know is that is there a it's a national
feeling I would say that we don't think
that huge inner inequalities is a great
thing I mean you can be very wealthy in
Denmark and some people are and you can
be poor in Denmark as well but we
actually look at the Gini coefficient
and look at it is it growing and one of
the things I did when I was Prime
Minister was to try and change that
bring children out of poverty and
poverty is of course relative in Denmark
to other places in the world but we are
serious about these things and we talk
about a lot and we actually think that
tax is also there to try to bring more
equality and also it's not only about
redistribution once you have paid tax
but we also very much I am very into
this
set of predistribution where you also
try to give agency and give opportunity
to people who are not as advantage when
from from their background how do you
think a national characteristic like
that comes about and why is it so
different in Britain I don't know I mean
it comes about that no one there's if
there's a really positive side to it
which I'm talking about here the
negative side is that we also have this
that even if you have been Prime
Minister or you are someone who had
standing out and in one way or the other
you can't think of yourself as special
and that really comes across in in many
many areas of Danish life and I think
too many to last extent it's a great
thing when I walk around the streets of
Copenhagen or in Denmark in general
people will treat me exactly like anyone
else I talk to everyone there and it's a
very qualitative society and that I
think that's a great thing and you see
it in every part of life there so if I
ask you to describe Britain's national
characteristic yeah it comes to equality
what would you say I live in London now
I live in the UK I go to Wales quite
often my family's from Wales and and
Steve's constituencies then we got
friends in Wales so I I see many parts
of the of the UK and I love this country
I really really do and I think the the
characteristics of the people here and
the way we talk to each other the way we
are with each other there's so many
things good to say about the UK but I
also feel that since I moved over I came
over in 2016 things have changed here
and there is a distance between us now
that didn't exist before and I do think
that unless things change over the
coming years we will grow further and
further apart in the UK and I think
that's really really sad why do you
think things because - I mean I'm the
breaks brexit vote didn't help and
because it went on for so long and there
were it wasn't resolved is still not
resolved for so many years it just it
just meant that Brits grew further and
further apart but it was something that
started before that and what
so it was the brexit a sensible cause it
was a symptom I think it's a symptom of
many many things first of all the EU
have not been debated here for 40 years
in a in a fair way and but it was also a
symptom of the divisions in the UK
there's always been a bigger division
between rich and poor in the UK now
there's also a big division between
people who live in the big city centers
like London and people live in for
example South Wales where I come a lot I
mean the division there is really quite
possible if you go from from London to
one of those places you feel the
difference is almost like turning up on
a different planet
when you arrive at Park Talbot Parkway
and and and go out to society there
people are poor they have less
opportunity and they see the world in a
different way and I think those
divisions between rich and poor towns
and cities people who feel that
globalization is a great thing and
people who are a little bit more
reserved to watch globalization people
who are who have been deeply affected by
the lack of industrial politics policies
in this country people who have any air
a degree people who don't I mean there's
so many divisions and then the added one
now is the division between young and
old where we you have a younger
generation that don't have the same
hopes for their future as we did when we
were younger so I think you see many
divisions and it's not helping with
trying to bridge all those so those gaps
that exist in the UK now so why did you
go into politics I don't know I went
into politics I was very I was
interested in politics very early on I
was my political awareness really
started with the feminist movement of
the seven seas I listened very carefully
to that I listened to the songs around
the feminist movement and I just
couldn't understand why men and women
didn't have the same rights and same
opportunities so that's where it started
in the 70s you were tiny I know I became
when I was 10 or 11 years old that was
my first political awakening and that's
also still what I I feel very connected
to then there was the apartheid
movement which I got super involved it
sounds weird that a young white girl in
in the northern part of Europe could be
involved in in apartheid but that was
really something that spoke to my
feeling of things are not fair here this
is so unfair so you would find me in
demonstrations in the 80s singing free
Nelson Mandela I don't know how much it
actually helped in freeing Nelson
Mandela but it helped in terms of
changing my political outlook and also
making me think that I could be part of
trying to create a better world even
though I was just a tiny tiny person in
that whole jigsaw of trying trying to
create a better world but I felt part of
a global community a progressive global
community and since then basically I
have felt part of that global
progressive community that are step by
step trying to change the world
I mean you enter in South Africa we all
remember the images of you taking the
selfie with the service for Nelson
Mandela had you got to meet him yes I
was Prime Minister
not as Prime Minister I met him many
years before this was before we took
pictures of everything to prove that it
existed so I don't actually have a
picture of it I have to dig deep to find
it but I haven't met Nelson Mandela he
made as steep an impression on me as he
as he did on everyone else who met him
and saw him so yes he meant a lot to my
political thinking and still does in
many many ways do you remember your
interaction with him I don't I I was
very young at the time I was I think I
was leader of my my party at the at the
time and I just had a brief encounter
with him but he made an impression on me
but I think he's the whole story and the
way he came out of apartheid what he did
to South Africa that was just part of my
political thinking in the 90s and I am a
child made basically of the 80s and 90s
and the 90s was a golden era if you
believed in politics if you believe that
you could be part of something big and
change things this was a year with Bill
Clinton Tony Blair and politics and the
breakdown of the Berlin Wall and these
were the years where we thought people
were young that
we can be part of changing the world for
the better and if we just join hands
honor and are enough people who want the
progressive future we will be able to
create that do you still feel as
positive about that period I mean you
talk about it with great enthusiasm a
lot of people now look back at that
period and say it was a huge
disappointment you know there's the
promise yeah you know led to terrible
things whether it was the Iraq war or
banking deregulation or you know a
rising inequality all those sorts of
thing you know that actually what was
going on there even though you felt this
was a great time to try and change the
world actually that's just some very bad
things I I don't agree with that I think
that the 90s and what happened in the
90s was a great what were great years
for actually seeing real change in
global politics and when the Berlin Wall
came down that is that had a lasting
effect on European integration what we
are today in the European Union the fact
that we could actually reunite with
countries that belong to this to the
Soviet bloc before they came in and they
they had like they created lasting
democracy lasting change just look at
the Baltic states that came in back then
that created lasting change and and
expanded democracy across the European
continent to a degree that hasn't
changed since and and created that
there's a new cave new agencies - in 88
agency - new countries but also
individuals across the European
continent that is surely a very positive
thing did we make that were there
mistakes made in the 90s of course there
there were but I also think we drew some
very important lessons about
international politics but also how you
can change Europe for the better and I
do think that that created lasting
change and so I mean you have these
causes that you believed in was there
any doubt in your mind that achieving
political office was the way to change
the world rather than being an activist
I always believed in political office I
was an activist for a very short time of
my life but I always felt that
real politics and where you really
change things is when you meet your
political opponent try to change things
with them listen have a dialogue reach
consensus
reach a compromise these are things I
believe passionate in still I'm a
passionate pragmatist in the way that I
really believe that real change comes
when you go into government when you
actually change things with other people
and when you start to accept that you
can't always have it your own way you
have to reach a compromise and one of
the things that I am so saddened about
these days is that the art of compromise
has become become something negative in
politics the fact that you you create a
middle ground and that's good enough has
become something negative almost
something that is a sign of weakness in
politicians these days but back then it
was something that what was good and
there's always been the driver for me
that you can't you can't strive for
getting it just your own way you have to
strive for the compromise and do you
think that that's what you do in
government to bring confidence back to
politics because at the moment you
everyone is struggling with how politics
has become so polarized yeah politics
have become so polarized and it actually
has will have a severe impact on
democracy itself because when politics
become so polarized we become as
politicians we become incapable of get
finding solutions with each other and
the more we can't become in or impotent
in terms of finding solutions to the
real big issues the more people will
think what is democracy actually good
for so that's why unless we find we we
find our way back to compromise in
politics it will actually have lasting
negative impact on the way democracy is
being perceived by many many citizens
it's already starting to have that
effect and that is why compromise is a
soul of democracy because that's respect
for a majority yes but also for the
minority and that's a little bit what
God lost in the debate around brexit
that before
to 8% who vote to remain in the European
Union they also had rights but I never
felt that their rights were completely
respected but so what do you say to two
people who really despise the other side
now because that is the way it is you
know sort of the debate amongst
relatively normal people yeah has become
so extreme that people genuinely hate I
think people on the other side they
despise them as people they think their
values have nothing to do with them when
when you're at that point how do you
come back from that I think it's so
important to remember that people don't
see themselves a lot of people don't see
themselves in either camp I mean there
were loads of people in this election in
the UK in the December general election
there had voted for labour all their
lives that switched to vote sinc Tory
there were vote loads of people in 2016
election in the u.s. that had voted for
Barack Obama that suddenly votes it for
Donald Trump a completely opposite to
what you would think there were loads of
people voted for the Socialists in
France that suddenly decides to vote for
Mike Hong it's the same people or early
pin so that it's the same people that
actually have both those sites in them
so I do think as politicians we have a
true obligation to listen to each other
and to find a common ground and what I
think you find most days if you go down
to the local pub and start talking to
people you find that you have so much
more in common that the normal political
discourse will show you said feminism is
the first thing that politicized you how
open to female leadership was politics
in Denmark when you were getting it's an
interesting question because I do think
that gender still plays a big role in
politics I mean a really big role and I
was the first woman to become chairman
of leader of my party I was also the
first woman to become prime minister in
in Denmark we still see some of the
Nordic countries I still haven't haven't
had a female Prime Minister and I do
think that gender plays a big role in
how we see politicians
I think gender played a big
all in when Hillary Clinton didn't get
elected because it still all of us we
still have this unconscious bias that we
don't even know how to talk about
because it is unconscious and I do think
that gender plays a big role in how we
see all the people how we judge how our
politicians so I do it's it's something
that is even hard to put your finger on
it so what was your experience of it my
experience was that my party wasn't
ready for a female leader and it played
a very positive role in me getting
elected we'll see if the Labor Party is
ready for that as well so that played a
role in in myself getting elected but
there were also issues sometimes where
you really could feel that the country
had to had to find a new way of debating
policy politics where they weren't
always ready for a female leader and for
many years it played a role in how I was
how us I was viewed as a politician that
I was a woman
and you think women also fall into those
traps women fall into those traps as as
much as men do I think and and I think
that as much as almost yeah I I do think
that women female politicians get judge
honor in a different way than men do and
I think that is still the case I mean
you mentioned the Labour Party here do
you think they should be electing a
woman I think it was offense has to give
the Labor Party could have a female
leader I just lightly different question
isn't it I mean there would be fantastic
but do you think think a party should
seek to elect a woman because they
should have a woman as a leader you know
that it's time for them to have a woman
as a leader I think it's definitely time
for the Labour Party to have a woman as
a leader but I know that there's a
selection election projects going on in
labour party right now and I don't want
to say interfere in that but it would
make me very happy if the labour party
could finally have a female leader are
you backing anyone and I
I like a lot of the message from Lisa
Nanding I must say and I feel very
related to her campaign she's a young
woman
youngish woman I was a young woman
myself she came from nowhere I came from
nowhere when I became the leader there
was a one-member
one vote when I got elected and it was a
bit of a shock to the system in my party
when I got elected because I was such a
different candidate because I was
younger I was a woman I wasn't part of
the very sort of ingrained party
political politics that was there so
yeah I I really like her her as a
candidate and we'll see what happens
what is it you like about what she's
saying
I like that she has so much respect for
all the people who have changed their
their vote from labor to the
Conservatives I like that she is so keen
to listen to people and really
understand why they have made that that
change and I also have a lot of respect
for for the stance she had after the
brexit vote because she comes from a
leave voting seat and she had a real
good understanding for why people will
vote to to leave and she kept the
respect for for people who voted to
leave all the way through those debates
or the debate about brexit so when you
became prime minister what in your heart
did you think you could achieve and how
much of it did you do I came in as Prime
Minister in the aftermath of the big
financial crash in 2008 this was in 2011
and Denmark had still not recovered from
that and then Mike was actually one of
the countries we often forget that that
was hardest hit in Europe by the
economic crisis so I came in and my my
big task as Prime Minister was basically
to preserve the welfare state and that
fairness that we have with the welfare
state and bring us through the economic
crisis and that took a lot of reform of
the economy I believed in a combination
of reforming the economy and at the same
time and we're at growth policy so we
had a really interesting mixture of some
austerity austerity some reform politics
but also a really heavy growth policy
and I still believe that if the whole of
Europe all of the European countries had
adopted the policies that we actually
really pushed that triangle of policies
then we would have recovered better from
the
economic crisis if for example Germany
had done the same if Friday France had
done the same then I think European
countries would have recovered better
from the economic crisis than we did and
faster
were you not angry with the Blair and
Clinton years for everything they had
done to allow the banking crisis to
happen no not at all I don't think that
they are responsible for the banking
crisis I took their deregulation and
their love of money no no I don't think
it was I mean I think there's a certain
deregulation that often happens and it
often happens that after when you have
globalization you always have to discuss
how much regulation do we need I believe
in a regulated economy don't get me
wrong I'm a Social Democrat and I
believe in a market economy which is
regulates it and perhaps we could have
steered slightly different in that
regulation also in terms of regulating
the banks but to blame Bill Clinton and
Tony Blair for them for the economic
crash I think that's that's not quite
fair do you think it would have happened
anyway I think there was a number of
factors that led to this and I think
that market economy needs a strong steer
it was it was more some of the different
time types of economic instruments that
were used before the economic crash that
should have been blocked
don't say you can blame neither Tony
Blair nor Bill Clinton for that and what
did you think of Gordon Brown after thee
I think rushlight way he the role he
played international I think Gordon
played a huge role internationally in
times in trying to rein in the air'
financial crisis and I think that's part
of Gordon's legacy that he really tried
hard to move the economic the global
community to rein in the financial
crisis and I'm admire him for doing that
because what we what we are seeing is
yes there's a lot of positive sides to
globalization also the globalized market
economy but then has to also be
regulation and what I'm seeing right now
is that we have so many international
problems
climate change financial crisis now we
have the coronavirus as well we have
international terrorism migration tax
evasion all these things and none of
these big big issues can be solved
without really strong global
negotiations and transactions and and
really commitment to solve international
problems together that's why it's so
weird and rules and rules and that's why
it's so weird that you kept decided to
leave the European Union because this is
a time where we really need the European
Union to be in the forefront in trying
to regulate for all these different
issues that we are grappling with in the
global economy so I see a world where
all the issues are global and if we want
to try and tackle them we need more
global cooperation rather than less and
we need more global cooperation that
actually involves global regulation I
mean some people say the other way
around and they say these things all
happened while we were in the European
Union and while these big international
institutions have just failed because
they they by definition will fail well I
disagree I can't actually believe
there's a fact that has happened while
all of these things are happening
yeah but it's only because we didn't
have enough global cooperation I mean if
you've never more EU yeah definitely I
mean definitely if you look at some of
the climate crisis for example the only
region in the world that out has
actually constantly been serious about
this is the European Union and if we had
more cooperation in the European Union
we would be able to tackle crime climate
crisis better terrorism for example if
we had more cooperation in the European
Union we will be able to tackle that
better
so I actually can't find a single
international crisis on international
challenge a problem where more
cooperation between governments would
not be a better thing not one and so to
what extent do you feel you achieved
what you set out to achieve as Prime
Minister Prime Minister
I felt very proud of the country I left
after we couldn't carry on all figures
were pointing in the right direction we
had growth again we had lower
unemployment we had fewer poor children
on every figure that I am interested in
we actually did better when we left
office than when we started so I had
good reason to be very proud so why did
it come to an end then because our
coalition collapsed I mean we actually
did better we did very well in that
election my own party 1/4 of the Dames
who voted voted for us even even more so
we did really well but our coalition
collapsed and then that meant we didn't
have the majority to carry on what is it
do you think about what you were doing
that the people didn't want morale you
know if you were doing so well
why didn't the electorate say this is
going well let's stick with this it was
it were very it was very hard years I
mean it really was because we made a lot
of reforms and often when you make
reforms you step on someone's toes and
we stepped on a lot of people's toes and
we were not scared of doing that because
when you make reforms like the pension
reform that we did or the tax reform
that we did and made our social reforms
as well
you step on people's toes and that's why
reforms is actually a really brave and
hard thing to do when you are politician
and I admire any politicians who will
start making reforms in their economy
because often I would say always it's
never just a question of having
austerity policy or growth policy there
is one more thing that you have to
remember and that is reform policies and
what this country needs as well are more
reforms so I think that we stepped on a
lot of people's toes we because that's
what you do when you create reforms and
that that is why we couldn't secure a
majority but as I say my own party did
really really well it was the coalition
parties that collapsed so what do you
think of the current generation of
British politicians I mean you you talk
with great sort of almost Romanticism
about the leaders of the 90s and 2000's
do you think this generation you know
they pygmies following giants or are
they no not at all I don't saw I don't
think I talk with such great admiration
I mean Bill Clinton made mistakes Tony
Blair made mistakes so Gordon made
mistakes I mean all of them made
mistakes but I think all in all they
contributed to their countries they
tried to be part of change in the world
for the better and I think if you look
at their results they have much more
positive results than negative results
so I think that's for me that's a fact
and you have to honor that and you have
to talk about it because there's also
been this discussion lately that for
example Gordon Gordon Brown and Tony
Blair did they do anything good for
their party they certainly did did they
do anything good for their country and
the global community they certainly did
so I want to be able to say that doesn't
mean they're without fault none of us
are but I think the fact that we have
politicians we have now their result of
a certain fatigue I almost want to say
about democracy and the way it functions
and basically we get the politicians
that we re vote for and right now we
have a lot of politicians who give who
pretend that they are very easy answers
to very complex problems we often talk
about populism and I think that is
actually the essence of populism if we
pretend that even though the world is
complex and we should compromise with
each other and we should listen to
people that we don't necessarily agree
with even though we all know that that
is where the solution lies they present
solutions that are very very simple and
that they would be better off not
listening to people that they don't
agree with so I think that is the
politicians many politicians are like
that these days
and that's because we vote for them is
it very frustrating for you looking on
having held high office looking at
people or by the sound of it
you think they're making a mess of it no
it's not frustrating people making a
mess of it no not that's not how I see
things I just think that we have to we
always have to fight to
renew our democracy and I think we are
at a stage right now in our time where
people are getting a little bit tired of
democracy because they can't actually
see that our democracy our democracies
are solving the big big issues so do you
think democracy is really under threat I
think there is a certain threat to
democracy and I think the figures show
us well that many more people there was
the case in the 80s and the 90s for
example are not completely convinced
that democracy is the best way to run a
country but what I think is amazing and
positive is that because we have social
media because we have more equality in
many ways you also have a lot of
personal agency that you didn't have
before and many more people actually
empowered to share their voice in demo
and as people as as citizens
participating in their society so I
think we have all these contradictory
trends so that's why I think we can save
democracy but is it on the threat yes I
think it is but what is it you think
we're in danger of slipping into you
know what what is it that we would that
those people would say okay yeah that's
right I feel that we have a constant
danger of slipping into us not
participating in our democracy saying
this is other people believing our
politicians when they say there are
these things easy solutions to complex
problems is it a source of elected
dictatorship that we that is the real
danger or I mean you know what what is
it you see that we could find ourselves
living under that would be the real
threat I think the real threat is that
we don't participate and that we think
that even the small steps that we take
as Democratic citizens do not count and
that's why the next many years I think
we have to have a conversation about how
do we reinvigorate democracy how do we
make sure that the agency that we have
all gained over the years which is
actually bigger now than it was before
how is that translated into
participation and us becoming Democratic
citizens that take responsibility for
our democracy I actually think deep down
that citizens love democracy and we have
to make sure that the countries that are
Joan
in that they're more democratic than
what we have now and then we don't slip
in to an apathy where we don't want to
fight for democracy and what I've
learned over the years particularly
maybe with the experience from the 90s
is that democracy is not something we
can take for granted liberal democracy
based on the rule of law is not
something we can take for granted every
day and every new generation have to
fight for democracy and that I think is
the fight we're in right now you've
spent the last few years running a
charity Save the Children how did that
compare to running a country in terms of
what you felt you could get done it's
very interesting to go from politics to
it's running a charity like an amazing
charity like like Save the Children
because what it really brings you to be
part of saving children is that every
day if you wanted to you can leave the
office or wherever you are in the world
and you can almost count how many
children's lives
you have impacted that you have been
part of a big Network where we're trying
to get more children to go to school get
less girls into into marriage vaccinate
children to save their lives and all
these kind of things it is so amazing to
be part of making real change on the
ground for real children so it's very
tangible to work for a charity and I was
just really proud that I was able to be
part of such a great organization and
made such big changes every every day so
being able to do something that is more
measurable yeah it may give you a bigger
sense of achievement I think both that I
think both those things give you a big
sense of achievement and I think that's
perhaps is the lesson for all of us I
think sometimes when you look at the
scale of the problems in front of us you
ask yourself what can I do little little
me what can I do in my little corner of
the world and I think the good news is
that we can all do something we all have
some kind of agency we want or have a
voice we all can join hands with other
people we can actually be part of change
in the world
bit by bit and I very strongly believe
than that even though you can't save the
whole world you can still be part of
making that little change and you can be
that change yourself by the way you
interact with other people the way you
respect other people in their opinion
and their right to be who they are and
you can be that change wherever you are
you can be part of that change and that
inspires me and inspire me and save the
children so of course also as Prime
Minister I mean there's a very funny TV
clip I've seen of you with Stephen yeah
I think I'm an election night so is
election night where you were kind of
basically telling him what to say or not
I was doing what not to say well you
certainly look like you were giving him
some pretty Stern words of advice yes
what is that dynamic do you are you his
adviser I mean Steve and I we've been
together for more than 25 years we are
we are we are each other's best friends
the best best advisers we are married we
have our two lovely daughters I mean we
are we're team and I think on election
night you become an even stronger sort
of political team because we're so
engaged in these things so I do think
that a night like that we were so close
and and we had these tears this TV crew
with us and I said to him why are you
doing this and if people have seen it
that's a very sort of like a very robust
advice it's in which perhaps it was but
I mean we feel like a very strong team
and I felt I was I was I was on his side
that evening which I always am and we
always on his other sides and and we
were trying to I was trying to help
because what was that like because
because when you a Prime Minister yeah
your marriage of a relatively junior
British politician yeah and you were
sort of commuting between the two
countries like I wasn't commuting I was
more or less in Denmark Steve has been
commuting and now I'm sort of going back
and forth between Denmark and the UK
luckily is very very close no I mean we
managed to make this this work for many
many years and it's I think it's natural
when you when you grow up together like
we did don't forget none of us were in
politics when when we met we were very
young when we met when you grow up
together and you form a family you also
become a very
strong team and we debate everything and
I always asked Stephen for advice and
when my when I was in politics and we
discussed politics now of course I want
to say it's not the only thing we talked
about we mostly we just talk about silly
family things and our children and
everything like like that but we are we
are a strong team and I think you've got
a little taste of that that evening
you're obviously very engaged in British
politics yes I mean do you do you find
it at all tempting as a proposition
Jen's had British politics I'm not even
a citizen here so no I don't I don't
think I would be would be no I don't
think I would belong in in British
politics I I feel maybe one I have I'm I
feel very grateful to this country I
live here and I I feel very connected to
to Britain but I also feel that there
are so many things they need to get done
here and seen from a Danish perspective
I think it would just be a complete
alien in the in this in the political
universe here my English is not good
enough I mean I would be I would be an
alien in this in this political culture
and what I really miss in British
politics and I hope but I hope the
British politics finds and I wouldn't
say again but maybe in the future finds
is the art of compromise listening to
each other and for example when brexit
was debates it for for so many years I
feel that it was a massive loss to this
country a loss of time loss of energy
that a compromise was not found much
much earlier to how the UK would leave
the European Union I felt there were so
many opportunities in those years to
actually reach out for that compromise
and I hope that compromise is not not
lost forever in British politics because
compromise is a very very strong part of
democracy and do you think it's it's
broken forever I mean do you think
Britain could ever go back the electoral
system in the UK doesn't actually push
compromise very much the electricity's
system is very much a system where
you are you shout at each other and the
majority takes it all and I hope one day
that this will be debated again because
I do think that the electoral system
pushes a lot of people away from
politics
perhaps him away from liking democracy
because they don't feel that they're
represented in politics so I hope that
that will somehow be found in British
politics but it's not there right now I
mean in terms of Europe as well I mean
do you see Britain ever going closer to
Europe again or Eve or being part of
Europe again UK is part of Europe and we
have so many interest in common and so
much culture in common between the
European Union and the UK so I hope that
after all this is done and settled a
little bit more than it is now that we
will start talking about what problems
what challenges would we actually like
to solve together in the between the
European Union and the UK and one of the
issues I see very clearly are our
security our internal security terrorism
cross-border crime all those real issues
then on top of that we have a climate
change we have our neighboring countries
where we need to work together which is
also about security policy so there's so
many issues where I think we will again
we'll find a way to work together well
let's just take a couple of those I mean
how would you change the conversation
around immigration I I mean depends
where you start I think every country
has a right to regulate their own
integrate immigration we have certain
obligations that comes out of UN
conventions and regulation in terms of
asylum seekers and refugees but in terms
of immigration I think every every
nation have the right to protect their
own borders and have their own national
immigration policy and that was also
there always the case in the European
Union I mean Denmark has their right to
have their own immigration policy so
does all the other 27 EU Member States
so I think that's a natural place to
start
and one of the reasons that why this has
become such a big thing in the UK is
because in the UK people you have not
always been aware of how many people are
here when you register you don't have it
you didn't have a proper registration
system for you you citizens for example
and I think under that was part of the
dissatisfaction with the way that every
movement of labour worked if that had
worked in a in a better way I think
there would have been less
dissatisfaction with how how that
actually panned out in the UK what do
you mean it wasn't as much of a problem
as people thought it was it became a
problem because to be honest I don't
think you had a proper controls of extra
who was here and who was not and are you
optimistic on that front
not really and again we're back to the
compromise I think this country as so
many other countries need a big
compromise on immigration because it is
tiring and there's an element of racism
in this conversation as well that the
the best thing that could happen for the
UK as so many other countries as well if
you found a big national compromise on
immigration so you didn't have to keep
going back to this so it didn't become
so politically charged as it is now but
a big national compromise on immigration
would be very very good for the UK as it
would be in other countries and I think
that's actually one of the things that
we we did in in my own country that
finally there was not a national
compromise but a national understanding
around our immigration policies and that
actually became less charged in the
elections that followed so if you could
change the world yes just like that yes
how would you change it it is a very
difficult question but I think there are
two things that really comes to mind and
I would reinvent compromise as the
strongest thing in politics where we
have to listen to our opponents and
where we have to find a middle ground
and building bridges is not a bad thing
it's not a sign of weakness it actually
is a very strong thing so that's the
first thing I would do and my wand is
very special
gets a second thing as well I've seen
firsthand when I was CEO of Save the
Children and traveled the world I seen
how systemic discrimination really kills
everything people are discriminated
because of where they come from where
they were born their race if they are a
girl and I if I could change that just
take every discrimination away in one
with one's back of my Warren there I
would do that because discrimination
kills everything it cake kills
initiative
it kills agency and if you could change
that we could change the world how the
toiling Schmidt thank you very much
thank you for having me for sharing your
ways to change the world I hope you
enjoyed that and if you did then please
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producer is rachel evans until next time
bye bye