So as I reloaded and pointed the gun at him
is when he jumped in the back of the van.
But I ran to the passenger side and then shot
through the passenger side window.
[MARYANA] You were growing up in Manchester's Moss Side?
Yeah.
Well, in the early nineties,
there was two gangs that have been at war.
So, yeah, from a young age you're exposed
to gang violence and gang-related activity.
You know, so what should have really been
frightening to a young person
or deterred a young person from it,
it normalised it, somewhat glamorised it as well.
The first time I got involved with crime
I'd say I was about 12 or 13 years old.
My thing was more driving underage,
but then when I was first 13 is when I got my first firearm.
My circle of friends, we had, the name of our
gang, let's say, was the drive-by crew.
So then people would always like make fun of us
and laugh and joke and be like,
"Oh, how are you called the drive-by crew
when you don't have a gun and yous don't drive?"
So then, as simple as that,
we went out and got ourselves a car and got ourselves a gun.
[MARYANA] How many of you were there?
About four of us.
[MARYANA] And all very young?
Yeah, all the same age, we was all of the same age.
All in the same year in school, or from the same area.
Started off, like, selling weed, drivin' around,
like I said, underage.
Had this gun, we never shot the gun,
we just used to brandish it and show people
and things like that.
And then like street robberies on a minor scale.
So what starts off as, like I said,
drivin' around, then I might have all the gang members
in my car, giving them a lift, drivin' them somewhere.
Then it's as simple as being seen by somebody,
and then from that point on you're labelled
a gang member.
[MARYANA] Were you worried about your family being targeted?
Yeah. Family's been targeted, to be honest.
There was a time when I've gone
to a takeaway with my mum.
Mum saying to me, "Let me go, let me go in."
I'm sayin', "Nah, it's sweet, I'll go in."
Gone in there, when I'm stood in there, waitin' for my food,
the doors opened behind me.
It's one of my enemies. He's bouncin' around.
And then
I've ended up leavin',
but then they was in the doorway
next to the takeaway I was in,
and I heard the gun cock.
So I'm just walking to the car, but I'm looking at my mum.
I don't want to make it obvious,
'cause then my mum's gonna panic.
So then we've got in the car.
I've already heard the gun be cocked.
I'm just waitin' for them to start shootin'.
So I'm sayin', "Mum, can you just drive the car?"
And she drove off.
Then after we drove off, that's when I explained
to her what happened.
The level of disrespect involved in like gang banging,
like people will do things to you in front of your mum.
I didn't, me personally, 'cause I,
that was like one of my rules.
I'm not gonna disrespect somebody's mother,
'cause of the love I had for my mum and my gran.
I lived a double life, you know,
even till this day when my mum hears some of the things
that I speak about.
It's almost like a shock to her.
When I was 17,
I got shot three times by a rival gang.
I was set up in a honey trap.
So a female has lured me to a location,
I've gone to that location,
and then when I got there there was like eight to 10
of my rivals waitin' for me.
Then they shot me three times
and left me for dead in the local park.
[MARYANA] Where did the shot go?
My stomach, my back and my leg.
I fell asleep in the ambulance and then I've woke up,
and now I'm in the trauma centre
with all my family around me cryin'. Everybody's cryin',
but I've not even realised what's really happened.
I just felt like I went to sleep and woke up
and now everybody's here.
My sisters turned to me and says,
"Oi, is this the end of it now?"
So I'm saying to her, "No, this is just the beginnin'."
[MARYANA] Do you think there was a moment
when you realised that crime had become your life?
It stemmed from two of my friends. Well,
a group of my friends, they got into this argument
with another guy over drug dealing,
and you're selling drugs in our area and X, Y and Z.
They’ve then had an altercation with this individual,
a shootin's taken place.
Then, he's then made a statement and got all them arrested.
So now they're sat in prison, awaitin' trial,
but then I was on the outside and with my mentality,
at this point, I was sayin' this individual can't be
in our area
if he's gave a statement to the police
and got my friends locked up.
I seen a group of my friends
outside an address down the road from where I was stayin'.
And when I've approached them,
they've all started tellin' me, said "Oh, he's out
and he's looking for you."
Then while we was havin' this conversation,
the phone's rang, and it's him, and he's like,
"Oh, where are you now?
We're looking for ya.
There's 12 of us. We've got six guns,
and we're looking for you.
We're coming to your mum's house."
So I thought, "I can't really have them comin'
to my mum's house."
So I said, "I'll come and meet you."
Then I went and met him.
When I got there, I seen them all
scattered around this van.
So as I approached them is when I let off the first shot.
Majority of 'em scattered,
but this individual stayed there.
So as I reloaded and pointed the gun at him,
is when he jumped in the back of the van
and the van tried to drive off,
but I ran to the passenger side and then shot
through the passenger side window.
[MARYANA] So that was an attempted murder?
Yeah.
[MARYANA] How much did you get for that?
I had the conspiracy to murder
on the hired help, 'cause they say I planned to kill him,
because he got in the van.
Then I had the attempted murder on his cousin,
which was the driver of the van.
And I ended up with a 12-year IPP.
So it was a life sentence for public protection
and minimum term 12 years.
[MARYANA] How old were you when that happened?
18 when I got sentenced.
[MARYANA] How did it all make you feel back then?
It's a crazy one because, as much as 18 is a young age,
looking at it from a perspective of hanging around
with gang members from about the age of 13 upwards,
I felt at that point,
I was established and older than I was.
It was a crazy feelin' because to me,
I felt like I've passed all tests now.
I got shot. I didn't say anything.
Now I'm in prison for serious charges.
I've not said anything.
I've passed the test.
So it was almost like a badge of honour
is how I seen it at that point.
[MARYANA] You going into prison,
what were the first days and nights there like?
The first few nights, in all honesty,
I had the best sleep ever.
'Cause like I was no longer on edge,
'cause when I was out, it was like every single day
you're expecting the police
to come flyin' through your door.
Every time I'm leaving the house,
I don't even know if I'm gonna make it home that day.
You know, so then bein' in prison,
it's almost like I know I'm safe, if you know what I mean.
So I just had the best sleep ever,
'cause the worst thing that can happen to you in prison
is you got stabbed.
And in all honesty,
you kinda have to let somebody get close enough
to stab you, if you know what I mean.
Prison life, in the early stages,
because covering local prisons, everybody knows who you are.
So, that was my first time in prison,
but by the time I've got there,
I've already got a reputation outside.
So when I come in,
that reputation then follows me into prison.
But as soon as I got convicted for the conspiracy to murder,
they made me Cat A.
So at that point, I was 19 at that point,
and then that's when they sent me to Strangeways.
But then when I went to the Cat A unit,
now you're with real criminals.
You're with people that are in for terrorism charges,
serial killers, natural lifers.
That was the first time I ever met someone
doin' a whole-life tariff.
The one that stuck in my head, I'll say, was Dave Bieber,
the American Bodybuilder.
[MARYANA] Why?
'Cause it was him.
He came to me one day with a plan.
And he's saying to me, "Look, you're from Manchester."
I'm saying, "Yeah."
He's like, "Have you got friends outside?"
Sayin', "Yeah."
"Have they got guns?" I'm saying, "Yeah."
He's like, "So, if you can get me over the wall..."
That's, I think it was
a mill.
So there was him and someone else,
so he said, "I'll give you a mill,
and he'll give you a mill."
So at this point I'm sat there scratching my head,
thinking, "How can I get this man over the wall?"
A few days later, 'cause what he started doing,
he started pressin' the general alarm.
So when you press the general alarm in prison,
all the officers from everywhere come running
to that point.
Now they kept doing that,
to time how long it takes the officers to come,
so there was a full-fledged plan in action,
and I was a part of it, and I didn't even realise.
Well, I did realise,
it was just due to immaturity and stupidity,
I've agreed to it.
Do you know what I mean?
But then somehow the officers have got wind of it.
So then he got sent to the segregation.
And that's what saved me,
'cause I would have got myself in a lot of trouble.
[MARYANA] What do you think you missed most about outside life?
That's a mad one, you know, because
after a few years in,
it's like you're shut off from the outside world.
So everything just becomes, like, say,
a memory.
Like you kind of forget about things, so with things like,
let's say, you have a partner outside.
You forget what the touch actually feels like,
if you know what I mean. So everyone will say
"Oh, I can't wait to get out for this or for that."
But in reality, you forget what that is.
You're just so used to bein' in that environment,
you forget what that is. You forget what it's like to
even sleep in the bed with someone else.
Even having someone else in the room,
when you're living with someone else.
You're trapped in an environment where you're
just on your own,
and prison's full of
ego and pride, so
we can't talk about real-life emotions.
You know what I mean?
So, for me, it was just being trapped in that environment.
I forgot about the outside world.
[MARYANA] What were the worst things you've seen and experienced in prison?
Again, it's bein' in the high security sector.
People, like... I seen some guy get his throat slit
over a rumour that turned out to not even be true.
You either have to toughen up
or become a victim,
to be honest.
But then after a few years in,
I would say after like five years of your sentence,
it just becomes the norm.
It just becomes a normal thing.
So rather than chasing,
say, release, and focusin' on the outside world,
you just live day by day.
[MARYANA] Did you make a decision to turn your life around?
Goin' into prison, I already knew.
The charges they had me on,
and I knew I was gettin' a long time.
My gran was already old at that point,
so I'm thinkin', "With all these years,
she's probably not gonna make it."
I was on the phone to my mum.
And mum's sayin' like, "We've been to the doctors today
and the doctor's sayin' there's not much long left."
So then I've said, "Put my gran on the phone."
So I'm speakin' to my gran, speakin' to my gran.
And my head's tellin' me, my heart's tellin' me,
"Tell her you love her, tell her you love her."
But then my head's like, won't allow me to say it.
Do you know what I mean?
So I put all that to, put that down to
this fake image I had of myself,
this fake persona I used to put on.
So then- but I couldn't go off the phone.
It's like I kept saying to myself, "Say it, say it, say it."
But then it just wouldn't come out.
Then the next day, I phoned home again.
But this time I said, "You know what?
I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it."
And this time, when I phoned, my mum said,
"She's gone." Then that's when reality hit me, then.
Like, everything else, all the peer pressure,
what other people are gonna say,
all these type of things, that all went out the window,
because now, this has happened.
This is the day I've been dreading since I got to prison.
And I thought to myself, "You know what?
I'm not doin' this no more."
Do you know what I mean? I'm not doin' it.
At first, the way I was thinking, so it's like,
I was thinkin' to myself,
"Alright, so I'm not a gang member anymore.
I'm not gonna get involved in any gang activity.
When I get out, I'm not gonna like walk the streets
with a firearm." But then I'm also thinking,
"But I need money and these things,
so I might get out and get involved
with some drug dealers that I met in prison.
I might get involved with some armed robbers
that I met in prison."
So I still had a criminal mindset.
Yeah, you might not be an active gang member,
but you're still sellin' drugs.
You might not be an active gang member,
but you're still decidin' to be involved in armed robberies.
And that's when I thought,
"Even that's not good enough,
'cause even that could send me back to prison."
So that's when I decided
to start gettin' my education sorted, my vocational courses,
all these type of things.
[MARYANA] When you got out of prison
how old were you?
I was 30 when I got out.
I remember the first day I got out.
I was in an apartment with my partner
and when I was waitin' for the taxi to take me back
to the bail hostel, we was just stood outside,
so me and her were just speaking.
Then a car's pulled up to a give way
with like four males in, with the windows down.
So in my head, that's a drive-by,
because that's what we was used to.
So then, it's like I've blacked out.
So I'm sayin' to her, "Go back inside, go back inside."
She's not realising what I'm sayin'.
She could just hear me shoutin', "Go back inside."
So she's like, "No, I'm not going back inside,
what am I going back inside for?"
So then, I'm saying to her, "Please, go inside, go inside."
Started like panickin'.
So then she started walking away,
so then I've charged at the car.
But then as I started charging at the car,
they've all looked at me like, "What's he doin'?"
and just drove off normal.
And then that's when I've realised, like,
I'm still trapped, 'cause before that point,
I would say like, "I'm done, I'm out of it.
I'm a citizen, a law-abiding citizen now."
But, in reality, with things like that,
it's like it showed me that you're still mentally trapped.
[MARYANA] Did you feel judged by society because of your criminal past?
Yeah, 100%. 100%.
As soon as I got out, 'cause I was on goal mode,
so I thought, "I need to keep active."
So I think I got out on the Monday.
By the Thursday, I was sat havin' an interview.
As soon as I mentioned my criminal record,
they're like, "No, no. No, it's not happenin'. No. No."
And then that was, I would say,
one of the worst points for me.
'Cause that's when I'm havin' that tug of war in my head.
So I'm thinkin', "I'm tryin' to change,
but you don't wanna give me a chance.
So what's the point?"
Can't be angry at the employer.
'Cause like I said, it was my decisions,
but then I'm thinkin' to myself,
"Why are you trying to change
when nobody wants to give you a chance?"
And I know for a fact I could just make one phone call,
and I'd be right back in the position I left in 2007.
[MARYANA] Can you talk us through what you're doing now?
What I'm doin' now is mentor and facilitator
for a charity, St. Giles's Trust, here in London.
So what they do is they hire mentors and facilitators
with lived experience.
So then, we use that lived experience
to reach the younger generation and speak to them.
As much as the police have got a job to do,
and they've admitted it themselves
that they always look at the young person as a perpetrator,
when a lot of the time that young person's a victim.
So like, for me growin' up, I never woke up and decided,
"You know what? I want to be a gang member today."
[MARYANA] What is the main advice
you give them, those young people who go through the same thing?
The main advice I give them is it's...
it's fake, it's false.
It's short-lived.
It's like, the first time I got arrested,
I was probably about 14. Four years later,
I'm sat in prison.
And then you go to prison, drop out of school, college,
whatever it is. You're gonna have to do it again anyway.
You have to do these things. You have to have an education.
You have to have some type of qualifications to even survive
as an adult outside.
People ask me all the time, like, "How do you feel?
How do people from your past feel?
What happens if a rival gang member sees you?"
Or this, or that.
And I'm saying to them like, the mission I'm on,
the journey I'm on, outweighs everything.
Anything anyone can say.
My passion is to raise awareness to this younger generation.
You don't have to go through what I went through.