Exxon Advertisement from 1980:
"What's being done to find more
oil in America?
>> This Exxon platform sits above
a major California oilfield.
Next year, it will begin producing
enough oil to supply the needs of
300,000 people for
years to come..."
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>> Dana Ferrante: This is Question
Of the Week, from BU Today.
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>> Jessica Colarossi: Climate
change denial and misinformation
have been around since scientists
first began documenting the causes
and dangers of climate change.
As early as the 1950s,
scientists warned of the harmful
impacts of human-caused greenhouse
gas emissions, like
excess carbon dioxide and methane.
And in the decades after to mislead
the public, fossil fuel companies
have funded and carried out
misinformation campaigns.
>> Exxon Lobbyist Keith McCoy
speaking to Greenpeace U.K.
in 2021: "Did we aggressively fight
against some of the science?
Yes.
Did we join some of these shadow
groups to work against some of
the early efforts?
Yes, that's true."
>> Colarossi: And slow any progress
of transitioning the world away
from fossil fuels, which
the majority of scientists agree,
needs to happen to avoid the worst
effects of climate change.
>> Even today, 139
members of Congress
[https://www.americanprogress.org/-
article/climate-deniers-117th-cong-
ress/] refuse to acknowledge
human-caused climate
change as real, despite public
support for solutions.
>> I'm Jess Colarossi,
science writer for The Brink.
In this episode, I talk to Arunima
Krishna, assistant professor of
Boston University's College of
Communication.
Arunima studies public perceptions
of social issues, like climate
change, to better understand who is
most vulnerable to misinformation,
and who spreads it.
We discuss the origins
of climate misconceptions,
and how to effectively engage with
people who deny climate change.
Arunima thank you so much for
being here.
>> Krishna: Yeah, my pleasure.
>> Colarossi: We can jump right in
to some of the big questions
we have for you.
I think our first question is one
that a lot of people tend to
think about, especially right
now when climate change seems so
ever-present in our lives.
So, how do I talk to a climate
change denier?
And in other words,
what are the best practices that
you could share when engaging with
someone who denies the existence of
climate change, and how has your
research informed the answer?
>> Krishna: Based on my research,
I can tell you that one of
the things that you have to
do before you try to engage, or
you try to convince somebody that
climate change is real, is to
understand their perspective first.
So there are three things that I
suggest that you understand before
you try to engage them in a
conversation about climate change.
First, how strong are their
attitudes about climate change?
Second, how motivated are they
about climate change as a topic?
And third, what kinds and
to what extent have they accepted
misinformation about climate
change?
And let me clarify this last point,
because there are a variety of
different topics of misinformation
related to climate
change that are abundant out there.
So there are things like
misinformation that is, all about
climate change scientists and
how they're alarmist, they're out
to make money out of climate change
and they are not reliable.
>> Donald Trump at a rally
on Decemeber 30, 2015: "So Obama is
talking about all of this with
global warming and that-th—it's
a lot of, it's a hoax, I mean it's
a money making industry, okay?
It's a hoax."
>> There is another set
of misinformation about how climate
change is not happening because
the weather changes every year, so
climate can't possibly change.
So there's this conflation
of climate with weather.
Similarly, the weatherman is
always wrong.
How can these climate scientists
be right about these alarmist
possibilities?
>> Ted Cruz in an interview with
CNN in 2016: "And the problem with
climate change is there's never
been a day in the history of
the world in which the climate is
not changing." >> CNN Interviewer:
"So you don't believe that there's
any man-made reason for
global warming or climate change?"
>> Cruz: "What I think is the data
are not supporting what the
advocates are arguing." >> There's
another set of misinformation that
talks about: okay, maybe climate
change is really happening, but
we can't really do anything about
it and all of these policies to
make it go away won't really work.
So there's that set of
climate change misinformation.
In order to tackle or convince
anyone, that this misinformation is
not real and that climate change is
very much happening and
we can do something about it, is to
understand where their attitudes,
where their climate
change denial is coming from.
And when you take the three
things together—attitudes,
motivation, misinformation
acceptance—that's when you can get
to a broader understanding
of the level to which you may be
able to convince somebody or not.
Think about this: if you have
somebody who's extremely motivated
about climate change, they identify
as a climate change denier,
they spout all kinds of conspiracy
theories about climate change,
you're not really going to convince
them about your perspective.
So, that's when you have to weigh
the trade off between you spending
all of your resources—you know,
time, effort, money blood
pressure—on trying to convince
this person, when they're really
unlikely to accept your viewpoint.
But if you have somebody who's more
tentative about their attitudes
towards climate change, they may be
more willing to listen to you, and
the kinds of things that they have
accepted as misinformation
are easily correctable, that's when
you know that you may be able
to engage with that person in a
conversation about climate change.
And so that's what my research has
shown, that the broader population
consists not just of the loud
voices that we hear regularly on
different kinds of media spouting
climate change conspiracy
theories—they're a small minority,
in fact, they're just very loud, so
we think they're everywhere.
Most of the population instead can
be classified into what I refer to
as "disinformation vulnerable" and
"disinformation receptive"
individuals.
And so, those are the folks
that we can try to talk to, and
we can identify them by just
engaging them in a conversation to
understand their perspective.
>> Colarossi: Can you explain
the difference actually between
climate change disinformation,
the people who amplify it, and
those who, like you just said,
are vulnerable, which sounds like
that's actually the majority.
>> Krishna: Absolutely.
So, disinformation amplifying
folks are the ones that I just
talked about earlier, right?
They're the folks who are extremely
motivated about the topic,
have extreme attitudes, and
have accepted a whole bunch of
misinformation about it.
We all have the fun uncle on
Facebook who's posting all kinds of
stuff about how climate change is
a left wing conspiracy,
about how it's a liberal East Coast
conspiracy to suppress the Midwest
and so on and so forth.
That's not somebody you're really
going to be able to engage with in
an effective manner.
Those folks are whom I refer to
as disinformation amplifiers.
Your disinformation vulnerable
folks are folks who may or
may not be motivated.
They may demonstrate tentative
indications of having
accepted some misinformation, but
haven't really yet developed
extreme attitudes about the issue.
And so when you think about this in
the context of vaccines you can
easily see where this is going.
And so, that's the real difference
between amplifiers and those who
are vulnerable: amplifiers
are folks who may not be worth
anybody's time, because they're so
far into their belief systems that
you're not really going to change
those belief systems at this point.
>> Colarossi: And like you said
too, that isn't the majority of
Americans at this point.
>> Krishna: It isn't, the reason
why I call them "amplifiers," or
we call them "amplifiers," is
because they're very motivated
to spread the misinformation
that they have accepted.
So they want to spread the message
that climate change is not real,
that it's a left wing conspiracy,
that it's a way to suppress oil
production and so on and so forth.
>> Colarossi: Why
do people deny climate change?
What is that motivator that gets
people so fired up?
>> Krishna: That's a complex
question as you can imagine.
I'll start by talking about
how climate change denial,
is a very well-funded industry.
There is an industry and mechanism
behind climate change denial,
that has been used for years,
to get people to believe that
climate change science is fake.
And, there is evidence that fossil
fuel companies
have funded this kind of work,
that certain propagandist
agencies have supported this work.
And what they've done is
they've learned from the example of
the tobacco industry, back in
the 70s and 80s and taken from
their work, learned from it, to sow
doubt into climate change science.
And so once that misinformation,
that doubt about the science takes
root, it creates a mental model.
And once that mental model is
created, it's very difficult to
break through that mental model and
provide alternate explanations that
will be accepted.
That's why it becomes such
a difficult thing to correct,
because not only has the campaign
to deny climate change and sow
doubts in the minds of the people
about climate change been prolonged
and very well-funded,
it's been successful.
>> Colarossi: Sometimes,
honestly I feel a little jealous of
people who just openly deny climate
change because I'm like, I wish,
[LAUGH] I wish it were true.
It has been this
successful campaign.
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>> Andy Hallock: Hey listeners,
this is Andy Hallock, producer and
engineer at BU Today.
We really hope you've been enjoying
this episode of Question of
the Week and
we want to thank you for tuning in.
If you're able, share an episode or
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We greatly appreciate your support.
Now, back to the show.
[MUSIC]
>> Colarossi: You mentioned
Facebook, and I wanted to ask too:
where does climate change
disinformation, misinformation,
mostly circulate and reach people?
>> Krishna: I mean, it's available
in everywhere, right?
And, I am not an expert on
algorithms, you'll have to talk to
my colleagues over in [the College
of Engineering] about that.
It's available really anywhere that
you look for it including,
the ways in which certain fossil
fuel companies will
do their advertising,
where they will include information
that is misleading,
that leads people to believe that
there is a thing as clean coal.
>> AmericasPower.org's Clean Coal
ad from 2008: But first we have
to say so long, to our outdated
perceptions about coal.
And we have to continue to advance
new clean coal technologies,
to further reduce emissions,
including the eventual capture and
storage of CO2.
If we don't, we may have to say
goodbye to the American way of life
we all know and love.
Clean Coal: America's power.
>> Krishna: This term "clean coal,"
there is no such thing as clean
coal based on my understanding of
the science.
But it's enough, it provides enough
people with enough justification
to say, " yeah coal is fine,
this company said it was clean." To
answer your question though:
climate change misinformation,
you can find it anywhere just
because it's not really regulated.
>> Colarossi: Like the advertising,
you mean, is not really regulated?
>> Krishna: Not necessarily just
the advertising, but you can find
posts on Facebook, on Twitter,
on various kinds of social media,
that get amplified, but
then the correction of that post
doesn't get amplified.
That's the case with any
disinformation [or] misinformation
posts, where the original post gets
a lot of virality, gets a lot of
coverage, but any corrections or
retractions of the original post or
news story don't.
And that's a problem that we're
confronting in as disinformation
and misinformation researchers.
>> Colarossi: Thank you for
explaining this whole topic so
clearly, it's so complicated.
Going back to our first question of
"how do I talk to a climate change
denier?" I just wanted to poke at
that more,
and see if there's anything else
you wanted to add, of understanding
where someone's coming from, and
then responding based on that.
>> Krishna: Yeah, so
in terms of just some strategies to
counter the misinformation that
people talk about.
So first, arming yourself with some
ideas and some arguments, so doing
your own research about the kinds
of pieces of misinformation that
are out there as well as ways that
you can argue against them,
is something that is important.
Be prepared.
But also, I always suggest as
a last resort: ask "So what?
What is the downside of accepting
that climate change is real, and
trying to make investments in
making sure that the air is clean,
making sure that there is little to
no pollution?
What is the downside of investing
in renewable energy?
The job offsets can be made mostly
equivalent, what's the downside?
We'll get clean air, we'll
hopefully get clean water, how is
that a bad thing?" >> Colarossi:
That's a great answer.
[LAUGHS] >> Krishna: Hopefully
that's one that works.
[LAUGHS] >> Colarossi: What's next
for you and your research on
climate change misinformation?
>> Krishna: So, we recently,
a team of us social scientists
as well as engineers and scientists
from across the university,
won a research grant from [Rafik B.
Hariri Institute for Computing and
Computational Science and
Engineering] and the Institute for
Global Sustainability.
And it focuses on climate
change misinformation and
how to address it.
And so, that's something that
we're working on right now.
It's a three-phase project that
focuses on understanding
misinformation about climate change
on Reddit, on Twitter, and
on different kinds of social media.
Understanding how native
advertising against climate change,
or native advertising by
fossil fuel companies, helps fuel
climate change misinformation.
And then what I will focus on in
this project is ways in which we
can correct climate change
misinformation among those
different publics that we talked
about earlier.
So, disinformation vulnerable,
receptive and amplifying publics,
and what strategies for corrections
work the best among these publics,
across different kinds of media.
>> Colarossi: That sounds so
interesting, thank you so
much for being here this was great!
>> Krishna: Yeah, my pleasure!
>> Colarossi: Thanks to Arunima
Krishna for joining us on this
episode of Question of the Week.
To learn more about our numerous
ongoing climate change myths and
disinformation research, check out
the links in the show notes.
This episode was engineered by Andy
Hallock, produced by Dana Ferrante,
and edited by Doug Most and
Andrew Thurston.
Thanks for listening, and
see you in two weeks.
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