hi this video has two components a
three-minute announcement of the
remaining venues of my American 12 rules
for life tour and the new Canadian
venues that will open up in July and
August followed by a lengthy discussion
with Ben Shapiro on the narrative
substrate of human commission derived
from his new Sunday YouTube video and
podcast so hi there I'm in Denver
Colorado today it's May 7th 2018 I'm
going to give the fourth talk of my
American 12 rules for life tour tonight
or maybe it's the fifth first one was
Toronto and Washington and Chicago then
Detroit now Denver so yes I guess that's
the fifth I'm announcing the remaining
venues today in the US where tickets are
still available and the dates and places
for my Canadian tour 10 Canadian cities
in July so there's tickets remaining to
ten venues in the United States on May
23rd Philadelphia on May 29th Houston on
June 8th Richmond on June 10th Charlotte
June 12th Nashville June 14th Louisville
June 15th Indianapolis June 16th
Milwaukee 25th Portland 27th Sacramento
and in between all that on Wednesday
that June the 5th will also be in Rick
javac in Iceland so tickets are
available for those and then I'm going
to be to her in Canada and July in
August the 19th in Toronto on the 20th
in Hamilton that's July again 21st in
London Ontario 22nd in Kitchener on the
23rd in Ottawa on the 26th in Vancouver
on the 27th in Calgary on the 28th in
Edmonton in August on the 14th at Regina
and on August 15 in Saskatoon
Saskatchewan
he can find out more about that if you
go to Jordan B Peterson comm and look up
events that's Jordan B Peterson calm
under events also in this video is a
discussion that I recently did last week
in fact was just released with Ben
Shapiro as part of his new Sunday
podcast initiative and I think we had a
very good conversation and so the rest
of this video was taken up with the
conversation that I had with and I think
we got further on the issue of how human
perception and cognitive function is
nested inside a fundamental narrative
substrate and we related that to modern
findings neuro psychology related to
hemispheric function I think it was an
excellent discussion and so I'm very
happy to bring it to you there's some
ads in it because I took it directly
from Ben's video so anyway so that's the
tour Philadelphia Houston Richmond
Charlotte Nashville Louisville
Indianapolis Milwaukee Portland and
Sacramento and that's all in June and
May and then Rick G Vic in June as well
and then the Canada tour in July and
August Toronto Hamilton London Kitchener
Ottawa Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Regina
and Saskatoon and as I said you can find
out about that
Jordan B Peterson comm events thank you
very much and I hope that you can come
to one of the talks they seem to be
going really well so far we sold out a
very large number of them and the people
seem quite enthusiastic and I've been
able to get farther in my thinking than
I was in my book and each of the talks
is designed to illuminate a different
element of the let's say the 12 rules
and the topics that are associated with
that so thanks very much and I hope you
enjoyed the discussion with Ben Shapiro
there's lots of times in your life
you're not going to be happy and so
that's not going to work you want to
have something meaningful that's the the
boat that will take you through this
storm
[Music]
well here we are with Jordan Peterson
and I could not be more excited to talk
with the best-selling author of 12 rules
for life and I will talk with him but
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slash been guests get the deal with Ben
guests and make sure that they know that
we sent you okay so I could not be more
excited to speak with Jordan Peterson
well as Jordan knows before the show we
talked for an hour before the show just
about interesting things we should have
caught on tape but now we're actually
gonna get a chance to do it live so here
is the Jordan's new book if you haven't
bought it yet everybody on planet has
bought this book I was walking through
the office today we didn't have a copy
in the office person the front desk had
a copier book you're sitting on her desk
sup that's the way this works twelve
rules for life an antidote to cast
fantastic book obviously topping all the
bestseller lists all over the world
Jordan thanks so much for joining the
show really appreciate it thanks for the
invitation well you know obviously your
your prominence has just blown up in the
last year and a half when we were
talking before the show about why that
is and why there are so many people who
suddenly are very angry about you I
notice there's an article in Politico
suggesting that young angry white males
you are now their their leader so
congratulations no you have said I want
to ask you about that why do you think
that number one your profiles become so
big of late and number two why do you
think it is that so many members of the
of the left are so angry about that why
are they characterizing people who
listen to you as angry and enraged young
white well we could we can look at the
characterization to begin with you know
because I think it speaks to the
pathology of the radical left instantly
they're absolutely incapable of viewing
the world
up through group identity terms you know
and so if someone comes out and
disagrees with them then they have to
characterize them by their fundamental
group attribute whatever that happens to
be maybe its gender because that's a
favorite or maybe it's race and so angry
white men young there we go sexist
ageist and racist all at once right
they're angry young white men well it
has to be that way if you're gonna be
the if you're gonna play the leftist
game because that's the only way that
you can look at the world and then if
you can't make your opponent
reprehensible in some manner and it's
strange that they would attempt to make
them reprehensible on the grounds of
race age and sex since that's precisely
what they stand against hypothetically
but if you can't make your enemy
reprehensible along some dimension then
you have to contend with them seriously
and so you know if I'm not an all right
fascist like Hitler you know or Milo you
know Alice which was how I was
characterized in Canada because the
radical leftist can't even get their
bloody insults straight he's like Hitler
or Milo innopolis it's like because
there's no difference between them right
no obvious difference it's just another
attempt to pillory as far as I can tell
and I think that it's it's dreadful I
really think it is there was an article
written in by the I believe the editor
of the New York Review of Books that was
just republished in The Globe and Mail
talking about the emergence of hyper
masculinity and how I was somehow
responsible without or contributing to
it like Mussolini and I read that and I
thought yeah like miscellany
and I thought okay so what are you doing
I see you're you're defining masculinity
or conflating masculinity and hyper
masculinity at the same time then your
virtue signaling by being against hyper
masculinity but really what you're
trying to do is bring down whatever it
is that's masculinity and what
masculinity is in in this frame is
something like competence and so it's
part of the radical leftists general war
on competence as well which I think is
one of the most pernicious elements of
the culture wars the dissolution of
hierarchies the the assumption that
every hierarchy has to be based on power
and served them the needs of your group
whatever that happens to be that there's
no such thing as
confidence and so and then the other
thing that's reprehensible about it
because that's not enough is that it's
just wrong
like there's I've got tens of thousands
of letters from people and people come
up to me all the time on the street I'll
give you an example this is a great
story this is really touching so I was
in LA about a month and a half ago and I
was downtown LA and downtown LA is kind
of rough and I was wandering around and
with my wife and this young guy pulled a
car up beside hopped out and he was kind
of a stylish looking 21 year old Latino
guy something like that it was all
excited he said he asked me who I was
and I told him and he you know that's
what he had presumed and so he was kind
of excited about that he said look I've
watched all your lectures and it's
really helped me and I've been
straightening out my life and trying to
get my room clean and he laughed about
that but you know developing some aims
and trying to tell the truth and and
look I've really fixed up my
relationship with my father and so then
he said wait wait just wait a minute and
I thought sure what sure so he went back
in the car and he got his farther out of
his car and he came over with his dad
like they had their arms around each
other and he said look we've really
improved our relationship and they were
both smiling away and you know that's
man if you're gonna target me for that
just go right ahead and as a real white
supremacist oh yeah yeah and it's
wherever I go now and this is one of the
things this is the thing that's so
wonderful about that all of this as far
as I'm concerned is that people come up
to me all the time and that's exactly
what they say they say look I was lost
aimless depressed nihilistic anxious
drug-addicted
alcoholic wasting my time masturbating
too much although they don't generally
use that particular example you know
loss essentially and and and hopeless in
some sense and I've been watching your
lectures and they've really helped and
I've really been putting my life
together and I've been trying to say
what I believe to be true and develop a
vision and it's really helped and like
and it's so overwhelming you know like
if I'm doing book signings after a talk
then there'll be a dozen people or more
who and these aren't like I'm only
talking to people for about 15 seconds
but you can have a very intense
conversation in 15 seconds and they'll
say look you know
like I was suicidal man like I was
really hanging on to the edge of the
earth by my fingernails
and I'm better and they have tears in
their eyes it's like it's amazing little
of that goes a long way well I think
that when I look at your eyes and look I
talk to people who love what you do I
mean every time I go on the road and I'm
speaking at a campus you're the number
one name that gets mentioned and people
would buy people who come to my lectures
and I think that the reason for that
that I've that I've seen is is really
twofold one is that one of the things
that you really talk a lot about is the
notion of self discipline and purpose in
your life and control and the idea that
you are in control of your
decision-making and your decision-making
matters that's one and the other
reserves you have you have a unique
capacity to say no to things and when
somebody says something to you that is
it illogical but popular then you have
the capacity to say no that's what
happen in that Kathy Newman interview
that then somebody was saying something
to you the made no sense and you just
said well no and then you just stood on
that now and when you stand on that no I
think it gives people a lot of courage
yeah well I mean the gender issue is
really an interesting one because one of
my professional domains of expertise is
individual differences I'm a personality
psychologist and so I know the gender
difference literature and it's it's a
very solid literature well first of all
it's very solid it has a 30-year history
once per psychologist got the
personality models down so that would be
the big five model all empirically
derived straight statistics right brute
force empiricism nobody had a
theoretical axe to grind with the big
five except to say maybe there are human
traits maybe they're encapsulated in
language we can use statistical
techniques to find out what they are
that was it that is the whole ideology
so very very neutral as far as
ideologies go five traits emerge okay
are there differences between the sexes
turns out there are all right they're
not massive although if you sum them
across all the traits you can separate
men and women with about 75 percent
accuracy so it's not trivial but you
have to sum across all the traits then
another question comes up well are those
differences socio-cultural or
biologically ok we can test that we'll
go around the world we'll look at
cultures will rank order them in terms
of the
gender equality of their sociological
policies we can do that with broad
agreement from the right and the left
then the hypothesis would be if gender
differences decrease among more
egalitarian societies then the gender
differences our socio-cultural or at
least more socio-cultural that's exactly
the opposite of what was found
repeatedly that's pseudoscience it's
like no that's mainstream psychology
those papers have thousands of citations
and right the average humanities paper
has zero citations right and then the
next most common one has one three
thousand that's an that's an
unbelievable classic and and here's the
other bit of proofs like you say well
how do you know that you can trust
someone's judgement about a fact the
fact emerges despite their ideological
presuppositions okay so it's well-known
that the social sciences and the
humanities have a have a left tilt and a
lot of that's temperamental and the tilt
has become more pronounced but as
Jonathan Hyde has pointed out there are
no conservatives among social
personality psychologists or none to
speak of yes very few vanishingly
feeling and if the field has a bias it
is definitely and indisputably a
left-wing bias okay so you have to fight
that if you're if you're a scientist
right even if you're a left-wing
scientist you have to fight that because
you want to get to the facts it was
these social scientists he generated the
data that suggested that the gender
differences not only were real but that
were bigger in egalitarian societies
they didn't do that to grind their
ideological axe because their
ideological presupposition was no no you
make the society you yell at Aryan men
and women get more the same it's like no
they get more different Oh booth isn't
that something and so then there's a
corollary there which is all right you
could still say and they're kind of
pushing in this direction in Scandinavia
boys and girls are different men and
women are different
it looks biological but because people
are malleable you could push the
socio-cultural structure harder and
harder to minimize the biological
differences okay well first of all maybe
and maybe not
you'd get a rebound and they'd get even
like the kids would rebel that could
easily happen but let's say okay you
could the problem with that is is that
if you seed that much power to the state
like you're basically giving the state
the right to socialize your kids rights
like you you really you really you
really want to do that I mean the people
in Israel couldn't do that with the
kabuto right it didn't work so people
aren't gonna give up their children to
the state and thank God for that well I
mean this is one of the big questions
that we were discussing earlier is that
we were talking about the polarization
in politics between right and left and
obviously you're you're a psychologist
you're a philosopher but you've been
dragged almost kicking and screaming
into this political sphere because
everything has been so politicized and
so when you say when you cite social
science statistics and they're
scientifically based you're called a
racist you're called the sexist you're
called the homophobe and exactly so so
why is it that so why do you think it is
that so many folks on the Left who
purport to be all about reason and
science and an objective fact are so
willing to throw those out the window
the minute that it becomes politically
inconvenient well because you imagine
that cognitive system so an
interpretation of the world has levels
there axiomatic levels some fundamental
presuppositions are more fundamental
than others and you could say well the
leftists historically maybe because of
their atheistic rationality are more on
the side of science than say the
fundamental isms of any sort but when
push comes to shove you find out how the
axioms are are nested there's deeper
axioms underneath that which is that all
hierarchies are based on power and all
power plays are based on group identity
tribal identity essentially and that the
entire history of the world is nothing
but a power play between between these
different identity groups it's like okay
well if the science indicates that some
of that's wrong then do you alter those
beliefs or do you alter the science and
the answer to that question is well it
depends on how you've hierarchically
arranged those if the science is at the
bottom then you alter your beliefs right
if it's the scientific facts or the
axiomatic
some structure then you then you alter
your beliefs if your beliefs are the
axiomatic sub structure then you alter
the science well we've seen how that
plays out and one of the things I've
tried to do so to speak is to diagnose
the axiomatic structure it's like okay
what's the what's the metaphysical
presumption structure of the radical
left well what it is is you're basically
your group your groups are basically
engaged in warfare right and the warfare
is arbitrary except insofar as it serves
your group okay I don't buy any of that
I think that's I think that's a route to
certain disaster I think it's a
degeneration into tribalism and that we
will seriously pay for it not only
because it returns us to tribalism and
tribes fight as the anthropological
evidence for that is overwhelming right
tribes fight it doesn't even matter if
they're chimpanzee tribes even
chimpanzee tribes fight so not only do
you regress to a tribalism but you also
invalidate the one proposition that's
being able to help us arise above the
tribal which is the idea that the
individual should be sovereign and so I
think the culture war is about what's
the proper framework within which to
view human identity and what's the
relationship between the individual and
the group in relationship to that I did
and the leftist answer is it's all group
and it's all power it's like okay so in
just a second I want to ask you a little
bit about some of the some of the more
enlightenment minded thinkers who are
out there right now because it seems
like we've been discussing the big gap
in in Western civilization right now
which is between the collectivists and
the individualist if your input of
broadly but I want to talk about some of
the divisions among the individualist in
just a second first I want to say thanks
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Jordan one of the things that we've been
talking about obviously is the big gap
that I think we certainly agree on
between the the collectivists identity
politics and and the sublimation of
science in favor of subjective politics
that favors a power group but I want to
talk a little bit about a division that
is is also now breaking out among those
of us who I think would consider
ourselves Friends of the Enlightenment
so you consider yourself a friend of the
Enlightenment style thinking at least in
the essence that individuality matters
and at the individual is sovereign the
scientific data matters are useful
exactly and and in this group you know I
consider myself as part of this group
people have started to call it the
intellectual darkweb sam harris is part
of this group there they're a wide
variety of folks with a lot of broad
political differences that are part of
this group but there are some real
differences that are broken out even
among people who consider themselves
part of this group right Steven Pinker
it has a different perspective on the
world then then you do I have a
different perspective than sam Harris
does you and I have our differences
probably on some matters of philosophy
so where do you think the vulnerability
lies in the in the possibility of her
vivifying enlightenment mentality
because it seems to me that one of the
big problems that's that's popping its
head up above the water now is the
rejection of the Enlightenment in favor
of this old-style tribalism that you've
been talking about
we're now going to repeat history
because we benefited so much from the
Enlightenment that we forget that things
don't have to be this way we've got so
much nice stuff we live in so much
freedom that we forget that if we just
toss those Enlightenment ideals out the
window things get really ugly again I
think that's what unites well that
that's the question is that what what
what do you toss out the window before
things get ugly
right and the Enlightenment proponents
you could say Harris you could say
Pinker Charles Taylor in Canada they
trace back the development of the modern
self let's say Taylor wrote a book
called sources of the modern self to the
Enlightenment and it's quite interesting
because like if you look at the typical
academic psychologists say their
historical knowledge generally runs back
about 15 years and so because they are
all concerned with the with the modern
literature and there's some utility in
that but that the downside is they don't
have any historical context so you read
someone like Taylor and you think wow
he's stretching it back 500 years you
know but there's there's reading that
goes way beyond that to look at the
sources of the cells and the source of
the modern ethos and this is a huge bone
of contention between people like me say
and people like Harris and I think
between people like you and people like
Harris is that my sense is that the
Enlightenment values themselves are
grounded in an ethos that's much deeper
and much less articulated and that would
be an ethos of metaphor image drama
ritual religion art music all of that
dance even without matter the nonverbal
the the pattern recognition and
McGilchrist has written a book called
the master and his emissary which lays
that out quite night nicely with regards
to hemispheric specialization it's kind
of predicated on Alcoa and Goldberg's
observation that the left hemisphere is
specialized for what we know and the
right hemisphere is specialized for what
we don't know if that's an order chaos
dynamic and the rough idea would be that
the left hemisphere generates paradigm
attic systems so that would be like the
Enlightenment system actually imprinted
right even stainable axiom predicated
but that that entire EXCI ematic system
is based in a non verbal in the non
verbal domain
that's associated with while it would be
associated with the right hemisphere but
would also be associated with deep
motivations biological motivations and
emotions and so because here's one way
of looking at it you think well how do
you validate an axiomatic system of
ethics and the answer is quite
straightforward Jean Piaget figured this
out is you play it out in the world
literally you acted out in the world and
then you watch each other's emotional
responses and if the thing that you're
playing out is the axiomatic system that
you're playing out satisfies the
motivations and the emotions of the
people who are engaged in that system
then the system is justified and then
you say well it's not just that their
motivations and emotions are satisfied
it's more complex it's that the
motivations and emotions of each
individual are satisfied but not only
now but now next week next month and
next year so you have to stay extended
across time and not only my emotions and
motivations but yours as well now next
week next month and across time so
there's there's terribly tight
constraints the or placed upon an hour
an axiomatic systems validity now the
way Jean Piaget thought of that he said
well think about it like a child's game
a bunch of kids get together and they
decide to play pretend okay and pretend
is let's Mortal the world right and and
as a place to act because to pretend you
ever go right so the kids get together
and they assign rules and they say well
you're gonna be mom you're gonna be dead
you're gonna be the dog and we're gonna
play house and then they they act it out
and what they're doing is seeing if they
can regulate the manner in which they're
constructing the game so that everyone's
emotions and motivations are so well
satisfied that they want to continue the
game okay and so that's so cool so what
it shows you is that's how an ethical
system is is tested and justified it's
like you play it out and you see if
everyone wants to keep playing and so
that's a whole different methodology
than the scientific domain right so the
axiomatic system isn't the ethical
axiomatic system isn't justified by
reference to the scientific method it's
justified by reference to the emotional
and mo
wellbeing of all the players of the game
now that game he merges this is the
second part of this and this is so cool
then the question is well how does that
game emerge and the answer is the same
way that children's games emerges
so what Piaget noted is that kids would
get together and they'd play marbles and
if they were young kids they could all
play marbles say six six years old they
could all play marbles and and if they
were in a group they were playing
marbles and it all worked out fine
squabbles no you know the kids would
keep playing right validating the games
but if you took the kids out of the game
and you said what are the rules of the
game they would give completely
disparate account so they knew how to do
it it was like the wisdom was in the
group mm-hmm the wisdom was fragmented
enough among the individuals so if you
pulled the individuals out they'd give
disparate accounts but if you put them
all together they could play the game
but then if you waited till they were 11
or 12 and you pulled them out of the
game then they could tell you the rules
then at 14 or 15 they they would be
willing to this is with more
sophisticated games they would be more
willing to regard themselves as makers
of the rules okay so here's how it
happens in an evolutionary sense people
going all the way back to our primate
forebears organize themselves into
functional hierarchies okay and now the
hierarchies are complex and they're not
just based on power despite what the
idiot Marxists say even do all has noted
that chimpanzee hierarchies are unstable
if they're only based on power they
don't last they need to generate into
violence so you have a hierarchy that's
that works but it's acted out no one
knows why it works it works because
everyone seems to be happy with it okay
and so those hierarchies get more
complex and more sophisticated and then
people start to observe them and talk
about them it's like well we've got this
hierarchy here what's it like and then
they spin off dramas about the hierarchy
here's a hero who climbed up the
hierarchy and here's what a hero looks
like okay so then you get the idea of
hierarchy and then you get the idea of
the hero as the person who moves up the
hierarchy and generates it okay then out
of that you get the extraction of the
idea of the hero and then you get
development of that idea and it's out of
that you get
the monotheistic religions and so it's
like the procedure and the hierarchy
come first no one knows what the rules
are it's all played out the same way
that wolves play it out in a pack or
chimpanzees play it out in a troop then
we wake up and think oh we live in a
structure here's the structure that
would be Osiris in the Egyptian
mythologies here's the structure here's
how the structure goes wrong here's what
the structure does here's it's tearing
at tyrannical aspect here's what you
have to do to generate the structure and
to thrive in it okay that's even more
important the hierarchy is important
enough but what we want to know is how
to master the hierarchy okay that's
where you get the mythologies of the
hero okay and then so then this
generates all sorts of different heroes
because there's different ways of him
being successful then you have a panoply
of heroes then you think okay well now
we've got all those heroes that's a set
we can move pull back and say okay
something about all these heroes is what
makes them heroes that's when you
extract out the monotheistic Savior
because that's why in Christianity
Christ is the king of kings it's
actually you can think about it as a
literal statement for forget about the
religious overlay it's like okay you got
a bunch of people some of them are kind
of King like okay so you admire them
it's like for whatever reason that is
it's not easy to figure out why you
admire someone right that's complicated
but let's say you've got admire
admirable people you start telling
stories about them that's why you go to
a movie you want to watch someone you
don't care about your board by know you
want to go watch someone admirable and
interesting or maybe the opposite of
that but doesn't matter it's the same
thing then you think okay well we've got
all these admirable people they're
generating the world properly that's
what makes them admirable there's a
principle they embody and that principle
is the process by which the admirable
world is generated that's the logos okay
that's the thing that's operative at the
beginning of time so here's my so here's
my question about about all this because
now we're really not talking about
twelve rules for life as much as maps
meaning which is your first book which
are you're doing me the audio it's it's
definitely a harder book than twelve
rules for life in a much more complex
book in a lot of ways than twelve rules
for life so how universal are these
systems meaning why is it that the
Enlightenment only arrives at one time
in human history in one place in human
history as opposed to if human biology
is essentially consistent across you
know across humanity then why is it that
that you know if at the at the apex of
the levels you have the Enlightenment
idea which is started this particular
question then why is it that it only
arrives in one place at one time as
opposed to arriving in a variety of
places in a rack right it's a great
crystal that's okay the first thing we
would say is the process by which this
the hierarchy itself and success within
the hierarchy is generated that's to be
accounted over millions of years at
least hundreds thousands of thousands of
years but I would push it back because
you can see analogs in the chimps so 20
million years let's say that's a long
time on that time scale the fact that
the enlightenment values arose in Europe
500 years ago before anywhere else it's
like well who cares it's it's it's five
old men long right if you put five 100
year old men in line it's like it's
yesterday it's this morning so we've
we've evolved these hierarchical
structures that's our culture we've
evolved ways of maneuvering within the
hierarchical structures that are
successful and now we've started to
evolve ways of mapping our our
adaptation not just adapting but mapping
it okay so how does the mapping occur
first admiration second imitation of
admiration and that would be drama
it's like you you dramatize Shakespeare
extracts out what's admirable and
interesting and plays it out so that's
the use of the body as a
representational structure of the body
so we act out what's admirable you think
okay now we've kind of got the drama
down we're all captured by this drama
it's like well then the literary critics
come along the Philosopher's and they
say oh what are the principles by which
the admirable people operate it's like
chimps woke up and said oh well some
chimps are more successful than others
what are the rules of success it's like
well there were no rules because they
weren't running by rules right
there aren't rules until you describe
the patterns then you have a rule okay
that's what happens with Moses by the
women right Moses has a revelation
here's the rules right yeah we've been
living out those rules forever yeah we
didn't know what
because they weren't rules they were
customs right okay so you start by
mapping your customs in drama and story
and that way you can represent them and
you can transmit them then once you have
them in your grip say they're
represented now not just acted out well
then you can move one step backwards
from them and you can say well what's
the commonalities among these what are
the general principles that would be the
development of something like the code
of hammurabi right it's like well we've
got all these customs what are they
right revelation it's like oh here's how
you map the customs that's the Decalogue
it's the same idea so I took human
beings a very long time to evolve their
hierarchies to evolve their structures
of success and then to have enough
people around with enough spare time to
engage in the cultural process of the
artistic cultural process of mapping the
adaptive structure that only merges in
mythology and drama then that lays the
groundwork for philosophy then the
philosophers could come in especially
once it's written like in the
judeo-christian pantheon it's like oh
now we've got it written down oh well we
don't have to remember it right we can
read it and while we're reading we can
think about it and so then out of that
starts to come the semantic codes well
then you get the Enlightenment it's like
oh well here's a bunch of semantic codes
it's like yeah yeah those are great so
this is really interesting because you
know if you read Pinker or three eternal
Goldberg's new book essentially they
attribute the the enlightenment to Jonah
Goldberg calls it the miracle it's
almost as though it accidentally
occurred in a certain place in a certain
time John doesn't quite go quite that
far I think to be fair to him but I
think that that philosophy that this
sort of sprang up randomly here is is
very much embedded in a lot of sam
harris is thinking a lot of Premier's
thinking and you're taking it further
back but I do wonder if this may be
nariyal disagree with us it should be
fun are you attributing the growth of
the judeo-christian ethic that emerges
into the Enlightenment as also
accidental you're just pushing a
timeline for their back bay oh I don't
think it's accidental
okay I'm not making a reductionist
argument so the first thing is I'm going
to say this is how religion evolved
I'm not saying I'm not saying that this
explanation exhausts the phenomenon
because it's a very strange phenomenon
it was very very strange but but that
doesn't mean we can't generate a
plausible evolutionary account it's like
if you have a bunch of motivated
emotional limited beings occupying the
same territory and competing and
cooperating for the same resources
including the resource of cooperation
which can generate more resources is not
a zero-sum game there are going to be
patterns of adaptation that emerge from
that that are similar so here's a way of
thinking about it if you put a bunch of
kids together they're gonna evolve games
right well which games well a bunch of
different games yeah but they're all
games right so even though so that's the
moral relativist element a bunch of
different games okay but the moral
absolutist element is yeah yeah but
they're all games and the games have to
be playable which means they have to
continue right in an iterated way right
so that's a big constraint people have
to want to play them so not only do they
have to be games no and comprehensible
to everybody and enjoyable but people
but they have to be self maintaining and
everyone has has to want to play them
okay that's the answer to the postmodern
conundrum a plethora of potential
ethical implications of the world an
infinite variety yeah okay fine
not an infinite variety of pragmatically
applicable interpretations you instantly
constrain the universe - Walter - what
well this is why there's commonalities
in mythologies is like if you put enough
people together in enough different
places the commonality of the groups of
people they're because of the grounding
and common motivation and emotion and
embodiment because were embodied means
that they're gonna generate hierarchies
that are broadly similar with strategies
of success within those hierarchies that
are broadly similar with descriptions of
the strategies that are broadly similar
and so you could say in some sense the
ethic that gave rise to the
Enlightenment is in place more or less
everywhere now it's tricky because not
every hierarchical system is as
functional as every
other hierarchical system some of them
can degenerate into tyranny we're
talking about the set of all voluntarily
playable games right or something like
that and that can degenerate out of that
you're gonna get common hero myths you
have to and then and that not lays the
groundwork that lays the groundwork for
even our ability to communicate right
right so this is the Enlightenment guys
they just they're not getting that so
and this gets to I think the broader
question that I know you and Sam went on
for three hours about about the nature
of truth because particularly truth in
the moral sphere I think that you know
I'm would be fair to say that you guys
agree on the idea of truth in the
scientific sphere that you know if
something is that there is such a thing
as objective truth or are you I would
say we agree on a lot of that that the
question is to some degree why do
scientists accept the idea that
objective truth is true and then I would
say we probably don't agree about that
because I would ground that in
pragmatism right and Sam would ground
out in the idea of an independently
existing objective world right which is
a leap of faith more like my own
actually than the pragmatist view right
no and if you believe that there's a god
who's out there in the universe who
created the structures in a particular
certain way then what he created is the
truth and it is apart from you that
human beings didn't exist and they
weren't able to utilize the truth that
truth would still exist out there
whereas the pragmatism I'd say it's
truth is in the use that it has for you
well that's exactly that's the thing is
that you know I don't know if we would
consider scientific truth true unless we
are also simultaneously accepting the
idea that scientific truth is good for
people so there's one other thing I
wanted to bring up that's relevant
because you brought up the idea of God
so here's a way of thinking about it and
and I don't know what to make of this
because this is stretching me this is
stretching my thoughts out beyond where
I've been able to develop them so this
is the intuition that I have based on a
variety of things experiences I've had
so imagine that there's a very wide
range of human behaviors okay and some
subset of those are both admirable and
not admirable so let's call them good
and evil at this at the extremes okay
then we might say well there's a pattern
that characterizes all the actions that
are good and a pattern that
characterizes all the actions that are
evil and that's a transpersonal pad
because it's not just about you or me
it's about everyone okay and so then
that gets persona
that's Christ and Satan let's say or
Cain and Abel right that gets
personified and that's a bad guy and a
good guy in a movie like it's
personified all the time
it's Thor and Loki you know in the
Marvel movies you know so now you have
the alleged state you take the idea of
Christ and you think okay so that's the
abstraction of everything that's that's
admirably good about the set of all
human behaviors okay and then you think
well what sort of reality does that have
and this Bissman pulls back into the
reality of the idea of the logos and the
idea that it was the logos that God used
at the beginning of time to extract
order out of chaos so you think well
it's transpersonal the goodness because
it's not just characterized stick of any
one person it's more like something that
inhabits a person rather than that a
person is you can really see this for
example on the other end - with a
satanic end because if you read the
writings of people who do absolutely
horrific things like the shooters you
can see that possession and
extraordinarily clearly if your eyes are
open it's like and it's shocking so
people don't usually look at it and they
even say that themselves like that the
Columbine kids their writings are
hair-raising you know and they were
clearly possessed by an evil that you
only encounter if you sit in a dark
place and brood on your hatred for
months and years right you go places
that you go places where all the dark
people go right right and then that if
that takes you over okay so the good can
take you over as well okay so there's
this there's the spirit of good let's
say and what the spirit of good does is
act in the world on the potential of the
world to generate the actuality of the
world and the judeo-christian
proposition is is that if you confront
the potential of the world with good in
mind using truth truthful communication
then the order that you extract is good
and then that's echoed in Genesis when
God is using the word and he creates
cosmos out of potential and every time
he does that he says and it was good
which is
think it's so interesting because
there's a proposition there in the
proposition there is that if you
encounter potential with truth the
cosmos you create is actually good well
that's that's just an absolutely
overwhelming idea it's like if it's true
if it's true it's the greatest idea
there ever was ya know your your
thoughts on this actually from maps of
meaning helped generate what we in
injuries in clubs of our torah in hebrew
leading they thought about that about
the the bible but it this merged with a
little bit versus italian thought led me
to the idea that when it comes to the
mystical notion of the tree of good and
evil in eden what is that supposed to be
what did what did people do wrong by
eating from the tree of good and evil
and my feeling is that what they did
wrong is that god created a universe in
which the value was embedded in the
object right that in the same way that
you in your in your book talk about if
you're teaching a child about an object
the rules of the object are embedded in
the teaching about the object so you use
the example of a vase we're discussing
this earlier but you use the example of
a vase where you teach a child don't
touch the vase because the base will
break so that the rule is embedded in
the object in the same way in a wrist
italian thought the rules for behavior
are embedded in the nature of the
universe
meaning what makes a man good is what
makes a man unique which is the reason
they they it is the reason is what makes
man unique so acting in accordance with
right reason is what makes something is
what makes an action good so if you
believe that God created the universe
along these lines and that what natural
law is is just the human attempts to
understand the lines along which created
God created the universe then we're
human beings went wrong is when they
decided to separate values from the
universe when we decided to take values
and say this is a completely separate
thing so this base has no rules attached
to it anymore it's just a vase and we
can construct the rules arbitrarily as
to what to do with this base and so
eating from the tree of knowledge of
good and evil changes the nature of good
and evil from the universe comes along
with a set of rules to human beings
think that they can use their own
intuition to supplant God's rules and to
supplant universal rules with their own
particular vision of what the universe
ought to be and at that point they have
to be expelled yeah well okay okay so
that's also associated to some degree I
would say with Milton's warning and
paradise laws because Milton basically
portrays Lucifer who's the bringer of
light weirdly enough
as the spirit of unbridled rationality
which accounts for to say the Catholic
Church antagonism the Catholic Church's
antagonism towards rationality the idea
was same idea and the Tower of Babel
that human beings have a proclivity to
erect their own dogmatic ethical systems
and then to expand them into a
grandiosity that challenges the
transcendent and that that's a
totalitarian catastrophe and for Milton
Satan was the spirit that eternally does
that right who says everything I know is
enough and that's the plants what I
don't know that's the plants that
transcendent and that that's a
catastrophe how that's tangled up with
thee with the knowledge of good and evil
while you're making some headway towards
towards sorting that out I mean there is
a cataclysm that's that's explained in
in in the story of Adam and Eve right
the Cataclysm is the coming two to
wakefulness and its associated partly
with recognition of nakedness which is
recognition of vulnerability and
mortality and the discovery of death and
then also the discovery of good and evil
that goes along with that so you said
well that's partly the the cognitive
division of ethics from the facts of the
object so I have to think that through I
would also recommend to people I think I
mentioned this before is in McGilchrist
book that the master in his emissary
because he looks at this
neuropsychological right and and looks
at the the left hemisphere as the
hemisphere that's dealing with the
explicitly axiomatic systems and the
right hemisphere that's dealing with
what those systems are embodied in okay
so part of what happens with with the
emergence of good and evil is as far as
I could tell it took me a long time to
think about this is that and this is
different than the than the hypothesis
that you laid forward which is why I
can't reconcile them exactly yes
you recognize you're naked you know you
can be hurt you know you're vulnerable
and insufficient you hide from God
because that's what happens next
and the reason you hide from God say God
is your destiny or God is the you're
walking with God is a manifestation of
your ultimate proper destiny you you
doubt whether you're capable of that
because now you realize you're embodied
finitude your nakedness and
insufficiency so you hide in your
shame so there's that you also realize
that you can be hurt and suffer and that
kind of goes along with God's command
that you're going to work in the sweat
of your brow and that you're going to
die and that women are gonna be
subjugated to men which is put on as a
curse not as a moral imperative right
right um but then what emerges out of
that is that as soon as you you know
that you can be hurt this is what
differentiates us from animals and you
really think that through here's all the
myriad ways I can be hurt then you're
angry about that because you can be hurt
but even worse you can figure out how to
hurt other people and and so that's part
of that knowledge of good and evil you
associated with this dissociation of the
of the object from its ethical container
right now the universe has created by
God from our interpretation of the
universe that there is a gap between the
two and that once human beings begin to
supplant their own rationality for a TOS
right in the or cecelio G you know we
end up doing is creating all sorts of
awful systems that end up destroying us
in the other stuff but there's something
about that that's right I mean part of
what happens in the New Testament as far
as I can tell is that what Christ says
so he's trying to transcend the rule
structure right not because there's
anything wrong with the rules they're
necessary preconditions for discipline
which is actually why I wrote twelve
rules right it's like you need rules but
they're but rules conflict and they
don't always apply and so there has to
be an ethic underlying the rules and you
should have more respect for the ethic
than for the rules right okay Christ's
idea and this is part of the idea of the
reestablishment of paradise is that you
should orient yourself towards the good
and that's something like an alliance
with God and then that you should tell
the truth and that's that's the ethic
that generated the rules to begin with
okay and then we could be serious about
this you know and we could say well how
do you adjudicate the reality of that
claim alright so then we might think
we're we already walked through the fact
that the heroes of the past acted on
potential to extract out the world of
actuality and if they did that properly
then the world they extracted was good
and that that is a divine principle and
then we might say well is it a divine
principle and you might say well what is
it that's acting through people in the
good
the Christian theological answer to that
would be the logos right right that's
the idea that's the idea of the holy
spirit roughly speaking right might
think well is that a real thing
it's like well to me it's real the same
way that consciousness is real and we
don't know the role of consciousness in
determining reality even but even if
you're an evolutionary biologist and
this is so interesting because the
evolutionary biologists actually
discriminate differentiated themselves
from Darwin on this point like Darwin
was very very forthright in his claim
that sexual selection was as powerful as
natural selection or even more so and so
that so here's where this that goes and
and because that was because that
brought consciousness into the world as
an active player the materialistic
evolutionary biologist ignored that for
like 150 years and only concentrated on
natural selection where they could play
well this is all chance right it's like
sexual selection is not chance okay so
here's a hypothesis human being
separated themselves from chimpanzees
one of the reasons they did that was
because human females are sexually
selective chimps aren't chimps will
female chimps in estrus will mate with
any chimp the Maine chimps the dominant
ones chased the subordinate males away
so they're more likely to have offspring
but it's not because of female choice
right now female human females have done
this whole different thing is that
they've they've they have hidden
fertility and they're much more likely
to go after guys who have climbed up the
hierarchy so let's say heroes will give
the women some credit for intelligence
right and say that that's what they're
after
even if they're using wealth and so
forth and status as a marker they're
actually using those as a marker for
competence standed yeah and I think
that's I think yeah I think the evidence
for that is clear okay so you might say
oh well it was human female conscious
choice that selected us mm-hmm okay and
you think well that's not random that's
not random at all it's the farthest
thing from random that there is and that
means consciousness is making its
choices with regards to what propagates
but then it's even more complex than
that so here's what happens among men
the men all get together in their
hierarchy they positive valued goal they
all accept that
the goal because otherwise they wouldn't
be cooperating right then they arranged
themselves into a hierarchy and they let
the most confident guys lead because
they want to get to they want to get to
the promised land they want to get it
the most competent leaders leading Rea
competent defined by that value okay so
here's what happens essentially the men
all get together and vote on the good
man
and the good man are then chosen by the
women and those are the people who
propagate and so it's like men are
voting on which men get to reproduce and
women are going along with the vote
and-and-and being even more stringent in
their in their choices let's say and so
then what you get is that the
consciousness that through its active
expression transforms the potential of
the world into actuality also selects
the direction of evolution right and
that's where the meme darkens term turns
into the biological reality it's not so
it yeah this is something that's so cool
about Dawkins it's like I've often
thought this about Dawkins is if he
would push his thinking to the limits he
would fall right into young well and
then he'd be lost that's a whole other
universe but if you think that mean
seriously like and I mean really
seriously think yeah there's some ways
of conceptualizing that becomes so
all-encompassing yeah that's right they
start to become an actual force of
evolution itself and so then here's the
case you could make consciousness
extracts the proper world of being from
potential through truth and then it's
good this way okay that's our hard one
man that manifests itself in human
beings at the individual level of
individual consciousness that's the
logos within
that's the metaphysical foundation of
the idea of natural right and
responsibility that's a bloody killer
idea that's expressed in the hero of
Heroes that idea that hero of Heroes is
the driving force behind human evolution
so not only do you get the action of the
logos metaphysically as the process that
extracts order out of chaos at the
beginning of time you also get it as the
major driver of evolution and so then
you'll ask okay
then what kind of reality does that have
because you chase consciousness back and
like it disappears into the mystery of
our past and we have no idea what its
relationship is with matter but it's the
force that gives rise to the cosmos and
drives evolution it's like you're
getting pretty close to God there yeah
even just pragmatically speak and you're
certainly you know not close to but in
the midst of an argument about freewill
because obviously if you if you make the
hard determinist argument that freewill
doesn't exist and the consciousness is
merely a sort of trick that your brain
is playing on itself then how exactly
does how does culture propagate how do
we how do these memes propagate how are
people choosing hmm sexual selection of
natural selection become one of the same
as soon as you boil sexual selection
down to natural selection oh you know so
I think the freewill argument I mean I
see why Harris gets tangled up in that
you know because well first of all
deterministic arguments are unbelievably
powerful and when we use deterministic
models for many things they really were
right so you could say well we're gonna
use that by defaults like fair enough
we're gonna deviate from that with care
but I don't see people as driven like
clocks winding down first of all we
don't wind down in any simple way we're
dissipative structures to use he wrote
routing them what is life a human being
is a dissipative structure we're not
we're not an entropic structure like a
clock running down we are in some sense
but as living beings we pull energy in
and so we're not winding down like a
deterministic structure or something
other than that and the way we treat
each other is as logos as far as I can
tell the way I treat myself right if I'm
going to be good to myself in the proper
sense is that I'm an active agent of
choice confronting an infinite landscape
of potential and casting that potential
into a reality
for good or for evil okay and if I treat
myself that way then I have proper
respect for myself and proper fear of
myself because I can make bad decisions
and warp the structure of reality and I
think if you read Frankel for example or
Solzhenitsyn and you see how your bad
decisions could warp the structure of
reality then that wakes you up right
okay so there's that if you don't treat
yourself like an an act of a
imbued with logos then your life doesn't
go well but more if you don't treat
other people that way they do not want
to play with you if we set up societies
that aren't predicated on the idea that
people are like that then the societies
become they dissolve or they become
totalitarian almost instantly so then I
would say well you've got the problem of
determinism
it's like fair enough man how do you
reconcile the fact that if you lay out a
society at every level of analysis on
strict deterministic grounds it fails
so doesn't doesn't that mean your
hypothesis has a flaw I mean maybe not
maybe you could say no the facts are
independent of the ethical contract
exactly this is where the truth deterred
this is where the truth pragmatism
question moves back into being pregnancy
I would say well it's true regardless of
what the effect is mhm and you would say
well it's obviously not true if morals
aren't constructed for a pragmatic
reason and if this fragment doesn't work
if it falls into nothing it also depends
to some degree on what you're willing to
how you're willing to test your
hypothesis because I might say well if
your hypothesis is factually correct
wouldn't you assume that if people based
their their their their behaviors
individually and familial and socially
on that set of facts which is basically
what Sam claims about facts to do in
with if you base your ethos on that
those facts wouldn't it work right well
he claims that that's a test you know I
would say well then it fails that test
yeah it doesn't work we have to treat
each other like divine Centers of
consciousness in order for society to
work yes I think well that's I can't see
any way out of those arguments yeah III
can't see there obviously which is why
you and I agree on so much about this
kind of stuff and I think that it's also
the reason why people find your work
really inspiring you know while the left
wants to claim that you are an angry
person they'll claim similarly that I'm
a deeply angry to press I don't think
it's been quite an angry conversation
I'm pretty sure it has not been but I'm
horrified by what the radical left is
capable of but that doesn't make me
angry exactly and I think that it's it's
demonstrative of why so many people find
what you're doing inspiring because
unlike the radical left which is
consumed with the idea of victimhood and
victimology and we're victims of the
system like Marxism makes the claim that
the only way that people suck is the
claimant Marxism makes but the only way
to cure people of sucking is by changing
the entire system which will in some
magical fashion transform the nature of
humanity yeah in the proper direction
right there exactly the claim that
you're making and I hope that I'm making
as well is that human beings do suck
unless they decide you stop sucking
mm-hmm right and then and your whole
goal is to tell people exactly how it is
that they can clean up their rooms near
Venice raise guns yeah well they might
as well start with what's right in front
of them it's a lot harder than it looks
because to clean up your room means to
accept that it's actually necessary for
you to take that little bit of
chaos that's in front of you that
chaotic potential and cast it into
habitable order and then you have to
develop the right attitude towards that
it's like okay well I'm gonna put my
room in order well what do you mean
order is in relationship to something
you know like if your desk is ordered it
means you've ordered it because you're
going to work there and you're working
there on something valuable and so the
order is conceived of in relationship to
a Telos it's like okay you're gonna
order your room well what are you gonna
do in it like what's your room for
what's the purpose what's the purpose
you can't or to your room without
falling into purpose and I would say
well if you're gonna fall into purpose
it's like try it out on a local scale
first right you don't want to go out
there and change the system it's like
what the hell do you know leave the
system alone see what you can do locally
see if you can put yourself together see
if you can put your immediate
environment together and you'll find if
you're in a chaotic household and a
chaotic household would be one where no
one has any discipline no one has any
aims and there's a terrible battle
between Cain and Abel going on all the
time right so so life sucks and
everything's miserable and more cynical
and that's what wisdom is it's like and
there's no point in trying anything
because everything is meaningless and
who the hell is gonna care in a million
years and you're a fool to move forward
in any case it's like there's your
household okay and so now you decide no
despite all that I'm going to put my
room in order it's like you will have a
war on your hands because the first
thing the people around you who are
aiming down will do is think oh you
really ate you think you're so much
better than we are
do you you really think that you and
your fancy goddamn plans it's like we're
gonna put every psychological obstacle
we can possibly think of in your way
because if you succeed even in something
that trivial you shed a very dim light
on our existence and so we're gonna put
we're gonna do everything we can to take
you out and so this people think oh well
it's cleaning your room now it's just
too cliche it's like yeah really I just
go ahead and try it you see how much of
a cliche that is and if you've got your
room in order then put your office in
order see and then you're going to
encounter the as soon as you do that you
step out into the social world you're
gonna encounter the antipathy between
men and women you're gonna
the identity politics in the workplace
you're gonna encounter how you regulate
your sexual morality while you're
working with people of the opposite sex
you're gonna encounter the ethics that
are necessary to move your business
forward it's like the whole it's a
microcosm it really is and so to take
those micro causes meant cause them
seriously well that's what I'm asking
people to do and I'm saying look it
isn't only about you being happy it's
like yeah whatever happen there's lots
of times in your life you're not going
to be happy and so that's not gonna work
you want to have something meaningful
that's the the boat that will take you
through the storm
right when you batten down the hatches
but there's more it isn't even that it
isn't even me a meaningful engaged life
will see you through the catastrophes
even though that's a big deal right
that's a great proposition and I really
believe it's true because you can say to
yourself yeah it's worth it right
right and it's great and but there's the
other part of it too which is don't be
thinking that your errors aren't linked
to hell because they are if you look at
what happened in the 20th century the
brilliant commentators on the on the
20th century totalitarian states and all
of their atrocities said the same thing
over and over
it isn't top-down evil leader
manipulating innocent masses that's not
it it's the moral failings of every
single individual unwilling to say their
truth unwilling to act out what they
know to be right that accumulate and
produce the catastrophic state and so
when you're fussing about with your life
when you're not manifesting your
potential when you're falsifying your
speech and your actions in the service
of short-term expedience you are working
to bring about hell on earth and that's
true it's true literally and then it's
true it's I suspect it's also true
metaphorically and that's a real truth
man when you get the literal and the
metaphorical working at the same time
it's like that's that's real so it isn't
just that you have to fix up yourself so
that you know you can have a better life
it's like who cares about you for a
moment you know it's you have to fix up
your life because if you don't every
time you make a mistake
that you know to be a mistake you're
leading the world toward hell
and I believe that I think it's true
well Jordan Peterson's book has 12 rules
for life honestly I we could do this all
day long and we'll certainly have you
back I really appreciate the time
there's a reason so many people follow
Jordan there's some reason so many
people are buying this book the book is
fantastic and his other book maps
meeting is also fantastic so get a copy
of that as well Jordan thanks so much
for stopping by I really appreciate it
thanks Ben it was great yep
[Music]
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