- People wanted to know the difference
between introversion and depression
and for me, I thought why, those are two separate things
but people confuse them all of the time.
- I can't imagine why they do.
I mean, it's really,
I mean, it's like confusing a banana and a chocolate cake.
- That's the way I look at it.
- It could not be, you eat them both.
That's it.
So I think that a big issue is that introversion,
a couple of things, it's a very pathologized pattern
in our society, right?
We view it as somebody who is,
we don't value people who wanna be alone
and we view depression as being consistent
with social withdrawal.
A person who's depressed is gonna retreat to their home.
They're not gonna come out.
They're gonna close the blinds.
That's not what an introvert does.
An introvert's got the windows open.
An introvert's just fine.
They are not, they are not depressed.
They are not sad.
I think a term that has actually come up in past classes
on MedCircle, it's a fancy term called egosyntonic, okay?
Egosyntonic merely means that the state you're in
is consistent with who you are like it's good.
So introversion is by and large an egosyntonic state.
Introverts are cool.
In fact, the only reason they're not cool
is people telling them it's not cool
but otherwise, they're like, yeah, I'm kind of feeling this
like this works for me, please let me be.
That's not depressed.
Nobody who's depressed is that ever egosyntonic.
Nobody wants to be depressed.
So they're really unrelated.
Now, can an introvert be depressed?
Sure but so too can an extrovert.
- That's right.
- So I mean, it's sort of an equal opportunity
mental illness.
- Yes, yes.
Now, how does an introvert
compare to someone with social anxiety?
- Okay, so Irene told me something brilliant.
She, this is how.
- And in case someone skipped our first session.
- Yes, I will.
So my graduate student and assistant
and introvert expert extraordinaire,
Irene Hernandez taught me this beautiful way
of remembering it.
I wanna give her credit 'cause it's really, it's lovely.
It's "introversion is your way.
Social anxiety is in your way."
- Wait, say it again though.
- "Introversion is your way."
- Is your way, yeah.
- "Social anxiety is in your way."
- Got it. - Okay?
- Got it.
- So introversion is simply who you are.
A person with introversion
may not necessarily be socially anxious.
Social anxiety is characterized by almost a fear
of being criticized, ridiculed or looking foolish
in a social situation
and it's a real concern with being scrutinized.
Now, that's not to say your average bear who's an introvert
wants to get up and talk in front of 1000 people.
That's in fact where you and I who are both introverts
may be a little bit of an anomaly
but the fact is though that they are not,
if they go and they're with a group of people,
they're not sitting there the whole time wondering,
do people dislike me?
Now, is it possible for an introvert to be socially anxious?
Absolutely.
It's not synonymous though
and I think a mistake that people make
is that she's introverted so she's afraid of people.
That's not true at all.
She's introverted 'cause she's introverted.
- [Kyle] Right.
- That's it.
- So my friend invited me to Coachella,
the big musical festival in California.
I said, I don't want to go to that
because that seems like a terrible way
to spend money and time and why are you laughing?
- I'm thinking like the introversion rates at Coachella
have to be less than 1%.
- Right, right, exactly.
And so I said, no, I don't wanna go.
So my friend goes and then texts me and goes,
you would hate it here.
- Oh yeah.
- Because they know how I would react in that group.
That doesn't mean I had a fear of going
or I thought if I go, people won't think I'm cool
or that I'm gonna be judged 'cause I'm not a music fan.
I just didn't want to be there.
It was not my way.
- [Ramani] That's right, that's right.
- Okay, social anxiety did not get in my way
in that example.
- Well, that's a beautiful example of that
and if for some reason you had to go to Coachella
like we did MedCircle Coachella Series, right,
you would go, you would do your job
but you'd probably be pretty tired at the end of it.
So it's not and you wouldn't be anxious.
You would just say, this isn't really my scene
but you'd go, you'd go with it but you wouldn't,
a person with social anxiety at Coachella would be anxious.
Their heart might even be racing.
They might even sometimes have symptoms of panic attacks.
They may be worried that everyone is staring at them
and making fun of them and they'd be afraid to talk
because they're afraid they'd look foolish.
That's not what your experience would be
and I think if we only do one thing in this session
is to debunk these myths about introverts
because it really breaks my heart
to think about how many people out there who are introverted
who actually think there's something wrong with them.
That's like saying somebody who has brown eyes
that there's something wrong with them.
It's who you are.
It's a trait.
It's a quality and I think that it's just that we happen
to be an extroverted society,
certainly at least in the United States so we celebrate it.
- It's like you are taking the words out of my brain
and speaking them but it makes me feel good.
It's such a relief because you're right.
If I did go do a MedCircle class,
by the way, Callie's here, she's an extrovert, okay?
- Like all dogs.
- Like all dogs, extrovert.
We said on the break cats are introverts,
dogs are extroverts
but if I had to do the MedCircle thing,
I would be exhausted at the end, exhausted
because I would have to be extroverted.
- Yeah, absolutely
and I feel the same way when I spend a whole day on a shoot,
I'm making a documentary or something like that
and I'm with a big crew and everything,
I'm tired at the end.
- Yeah, yeah.
Does depression look differently in an introvert
than it does in any other person?
- I think in a person who's introverted,
there may be some risks.
For example, when a person becomes depressed
and they have friends or loved ones around them, they,
one of the first things we may notice is social withdrawal
but if an introvert is already keeping to themselves,
that pattern may not be as pronounced in them, right,
'cause they were already kind of like prefer time alone
and so some patterns might get missed.
I think though for an introvert,
you would see the same patterns of sadness
and loss of pleasure
and changes in how they think and perceive the world
and all of that.
What they may be less likely to do
is reach out to people and talk about it.
So other people may not hear about it as quickly
because that may not, even on a good day,
they may be less likely to do that
'cause just less likely of what they might do
but that said, doesn't mean that a person who is introverted
won't seek out help.
People with depression
are simply less likely to sometimes seek out help
because they are sort of feeling ineffective
and apathetic and exhausted
but since people who are introverted
maintain perfectly fine close, close relationships,
they may feel comfortable saying, I don't feel great.
However, for an introvert,
therapy and making a new relationship with a therapist,
there may be a little bit more of a step back from that
and more reluctance and sort of a slower drive to get in
and for therapy to take hold.
It doesn't mean it can't work and can't work beautifully.
I've worked with many introverted clients actually.
Once we make the connection, it's wonderful, it's great.
They really use the space well,
but some of these things just take a little bit longer.
- It seems though that an introvert
would be more likely to socially isolate.
- They're always going to be less socially active.
So I think socially isolated
almost actually feels more of like a pathologized term.
They may do less of that
kind of putting themselves out there with other people.
Isolation almost feels like I'm cutting myself off
from the world.
They're actually just, I'm pretty content to be at home.
So does that make sense?
It's not like I'm locking the doors against the world.
- It does make sense
and the reason I'm speaking from personal experience so much
is because I both have had depression and I'm an introvert
but I have noticed that I will socially isolate
but that is a symptom of depression.
- Depression, bingo. - Not introversion.
- That's the point.
So you will socially isolate in the name of the depression
but when you're not depressed, you won't socially isolate.
You'll have the same level of social engagement
as you did before.
- That is such a big moment for me
and anybody else who's an introvert with depression
I would imagine because I can recognize the difference
between social isolation
and just preferring to spend the night by myself.
There's a huge feeling that, the difference in feeling
and so if I'm noticing myself on the social isolation point,
I think there would be a part of me before this moment
that would have said, well, no,
that's just because you're an introvert
and you're ignoring the red flag
that is no, your depression is acting up.
That's big.
- That's a big one.
I think many times people who are introverted
often feel sort of unheard and unrepresented
in a lot of the conversations
and writings about mental health
because it feels sometimes it's different
in their experiences than represented.
So I hope that's an important takeaway.