- Just a reminder that this video series
is an educational project sponsored by Google.
I find it interesting that as we become
more connected through social media,
many people report feeling
more isolated and depressed than ever,
and trust me, I know there are benefits
and set backs to using social media.
As someone who spends a lot
of their time online,
I see it each and every day,
and it's always been my belief
that it's all in how we use it.
Do we use it to connect and to educate ourselves?
Or do we use it to compare and shout others down?
So much to discuss when it comes to media
and the role it can play in burnout,
not to mention our overall mental health.
Because media has changed so much over the years,
I wanted to sit down with a friend
and colleague of mine.
If you watch TV or a fan of Loveline
back in the day, or listen to a lot of podcasts,
you might recognize him, let's go chat.
First of all, thank you
for making time for us today.
- My pleasure.
- I know you're very busy.
For those members of my audience
who don't know who you are,
who are you and what do you do?
- I'm Dr. Drew Pinsky, I'm an Internist,
I'm an addictionologist, I've done radio
and television for a lot of years,
I did a show called Celebrity Rehab.
People might know me from that.
- You do a podcast now.
- Teen Mom, Teen Mom.
I do a podcast at drdrew.com.
- Wonderful, thank you again.
- Oh, there's Dr. Drew After Dark too,
my wife would kill me
if I didn't mention that podcast,
with Tom Segura and Christina P..
- Yeah, and we'll link everything
in the description if you want
to check out what he does.
But today, we're gonna talk a little bit
about social media and the impact
it can have on our mental health.
Do you believe that it
has negatively or positively effecting us?
- It is not a positive.
It is definitely not a positive.
Screens generally are not a positive.
I really believe that it will be a time
in not to different future
where we'll be looking at screens
the way we look at drugs of abuse or tobacco.
We'll look at it like tobacco.
Something that we believe everybody did it
without understanding how it was so harmful.
- That's a good point and I agree.
Do you think, 'cause I know that it's changed
over the years, obviously.
Right now, phones do way more
than phones used to do.
- That's funny that we still call them phones.
- They're computers. - Yeah, they are.
- It's just a handheld computer.
How have you seen that shift?
Do you think as social media has become
what it is, do you, in your practice,
or in being online,
do you see more depression, more anxiety?
- More depression, more bullying,
more comparing.
I mean, one of the things that's very clear
on happiness literature,
which is that humans can be very happy
until they see somebody else
that's got something more,
and that's all Instagram is.
- Yes. - That's all we're doing.
We fear we're missing out.
Or we fear of not having something
that somebody else who has
these very fabricated pictures
we don't have or look like.
It's just most ridiculous thing in the world.
It's a recipe for unhappiness.
And, bullying online,
I think everyone understands
that's a major problem.
But the biggest problem from my perspective
is the fact that we've created,
essentially, a giant public square
for people to act out in a mob.
The mob behavior is like nothing
I've seen in my lifetime.
And whenever we've had mobs operating like this
in human history it has not ended well.
- Well yeah, because you're giving,
like this sounds bad to say this this way,
but you're giving everyone a voice
and giving everyone this power.
- It's the power, it's not just the voice.
I mean, we're in a democratic culture,
we like people to be able to have a voice,
we want to hear everybody's voice,
but to give people the power to,
as a mob, cause people to lose their job,
cause people to have legal problems,
cause relationships to break up.
People should not have that power.
This is not a court.
- Yeah, we can't be judge and jury.
- It is a mob and to think that that
self righteousness is acted out in social media,
particularly places like Twitter,
it is very dangerous.
Now, it can have a very positive effect too.
We've got some real serious social change,
Me Too, Black Lives Matter,
these things have been sort of
able to have their effects
because of social media.
So it's a double edged sword of course,
but I'm just very concerned about the excesses.
I really am.
- Yeah, 'cause I do think that social media
has the positive connectivity,
especially, I talk about mental health online.
- Well, connectivity, the problem
is that every time we study connectivity
with any kind of online,
even if it's online therapy,
or online relationships, it's a pseudo intimacy.
It doesn't have the same effect
as two bodies in space, it just does not.
Now, it's better than nothing,
for people that are lonely.
And it's great for information,
great to gather support and ideas
from other people, but don't pretend
it's close to two humans relating to each other.
It's different. - Yeah.
Well, and I know, even as a therapist,
I'm sure you can say this too,
is like seeing a patient in person
is very different than seeing a patient
like this or just through text.
- That's right, and there's certain
amount of things you can do with
cognitive behavioral therapies,
and different kinds of interventions
that are of a cognitive nature,
and a support of maybe a psychotherapy,
but in terms of deep emotionally focused
therapies where people are attuning to each other
and sort of co-creating an experience,
which is what therapy really is,
you can't do that across a screen.
- No, and I agree, you miss a lot
of important key elements to therapy.
So if people are feeling overwhelmed
by social media or the detrimental effects
that we're kind of discussing,
what do you recommend they do?
I mean, it's kind of obvious, but.
- Run away!
Get away from it!
Stand back!
- Sign off. - Sign off.
Get some time off, I mean,
it's almost unrealistic to say
you can entirely get away from it.
Some people are doing that.
But, your career may be dependent upon it.
- Well that's what I was gonna ask,
how do you manage it?
'Cause you're as bad as me.
We have to be there.
- I have to be there and I learned to be
much less sensitive to what goes on there.
I've learned to put others,
my wife does a lot of it,
and I just cringe waiting for
the horrible comments to come back.
- Especially on Twitter.
You're like, I can hear them coming.
- Yeah, but I learned to sort of
accept it for what it is
and not be bothered by it.
So there might be a good component of that,
but when a mob really gets going
it feels dangerous.
- Yeah, and I do think there are
some dangerous components to it,
especially, because you can ruin people's lives
for things that never happened.
- Didn't happen or had nothing to do with you.
Or, who are you to say
that they should lose their job?
It seems to me, the public execution
is lose the job.
- Well, and businesses act on it,
that's the thing. - Yes!
- Because they feel intimidated by the mob.
- 100%, listen, there should be
a new policy out there for businesses,
and particularly human resource managers.
When there's something that comes at them
from the mob about an employee,
the first move should be,
we're not gonna fire this person.
The first thing we're gonna do is not fire them.
We will look into it, we may fire them
if there's some real serious violations here,
but move one, shut up, we're not firing him.
- Well that takes away the power.
- Yes, and it would make it all sensible again
and let things function
the way they're supposed to function.
But no, they're scared out of there minds
and they run away and they fire the individual
and that's that.
- Yeah, no, great point.
So, limiting time online.
- Limiting time online.
- [Kati] Limiting who you follow, maybe.
- Limiting who you follow.
Try not to compare, very hard.
- Yes, it is very hard.
I've had to unfollow people
because I find myself comparing.
'Cause I'm like, how are they always on vacation
and I'm here working 12 hour days.
- You need to unfollow those people.
You know, really when I think about it,
the biggest, what we need to build
is sort of a certain amount of support,
ourselves against what goes on online.
Again, that's real relationships.
That's in person relationships.
So, spending flesh time with people
that really care about you,
listening to them, letting them listen to you,
old fashioned mental health.
- Yes, eye contact.
- Eye contact, connection.
- Physical touch, a connection.
- Attunement, listen, empathy,
share with each other, break bread,
and guess what, you'll be much better
at being able to tolerate
whatever you're having to deal with online.
- [Kati] Yes, I have this analogy I use
called Poker Chips, that everybody wakes up
with a certain amount of poker chips.
And every time someone does something
that's mean, it costs you one.
- Or two. - Yeah, or all of them,
depending on how you're doing, right?
And so if we can do things
to wake up with more poker chips
that means that we'll have more
thicker skin or--
- Well, it's just old fashioned,
it's old fashioned resiliency and regulation, right?
So, sleep better, eat better,
exercise, take care of yourself.
But I think because we've had such,
we've devalued relationships so much
for the last 30 or 40 years,
that to point out that that piece
is what's missing,
community, service, empathy.
The online is all about bullying and envy.
Real life should be about empathy
and you can tolerate
some of that other stuff then.
- I completely agree, great point.
And just to wrap things up,
since this whole series is about burnout,
I've heard that you have
some very unique thoughts about it.
I know that this might be a whole,
a rabbit hole that we're.
- It's a whole thing, it's a rabbit hole
because I think burnout,
I don't get burnout personally.
- Teach me your ways later.
- I get dread. - Okay.
- And I overdo things.
But, I have an extraordinary ability
to tolerate large amounts of work.
And I don't know why I'm able to do that.
- Well, everybody's different, right?
Resiliency. - Exactly, exactly.
And so that's what, when people say burnout,
I go, oh, I don't think we're all talking
about the same thing.
- No, because you're talking about one word
for all these different things.
- Exactly, and that's what,
when I say burnout doesn't exist,
I don't mean that you can't get burned out,
I'm saying, that the term burnout,
I'm not sure we're all talking
about the same thing.
So, I, I'm a workaholic.
I can tolerate a lot of work
and then I get dread.
So I don't really experience burnout.
I allow the thing that I love
to become the source of misery.
- Yes. - That is not good.
- No. - That is not good.
You can call that burnout
but I would call that dread.
- You call it dread. - And workaholism
and needing to create balance and stuff,
which is some of the same stuff
I think people would call burnout.
But I just want people to get a good look at,
take a good hard look at what they mean
by burnout 'cause some people,
they can't tolerate a lot of work.
We're all constitutionally different
and I get that, and you can get something
like a burnout very easily, but guess what?
If you anticipate it and you pace yourself,
it's like dosing a drug or exercise,
anything else, this burnout thing
magically stops happening.
And you're able to tolerate a lot.
- Yes, no, it's a great point.
And also, a lot of symptoms overlap
with depression. - Exactly.
All the time we're talking about anxiety
and depression.
- Making sure you're properly diagnosed.
- Exactly, so I just get nervous
when people want to say I'm burned out.
There's so many things that go into that basket,
I'm sure you're parsing it all out.
- Yeah, and I think it's just like
any new term, you wonder,
what did we used to call that term.
- Yeah, what do we really mean
when we're talking about that.
And it's like everything else in human beings,
and particularly in mental health,
it's that person's experience.
When you really start to dig into what they mean
by burnout, often it's something much richer, frankly.
And something that can be dealt with
in very very specific ways,
other than, hey don't work so hard.
- Totally, I agree, yeah.
I thought it was interesting
that Dr. Drew views social media
as mostly a negative thing.
And while I don't completely agree with that,
I do agree that we need to be more
cognizant of who we follow online
and what we allow ourselves to digest there.
Meaning, that if we feel tied to our phones,
so much so, that we aren't engaging
in real conversation and connection
with those around us,
it might be a good idea to take a break.
Or at least keep our phones put away,
tucked in our purse or in our pocket
when we're spending time with our loved ones.
Another good point Dr. Drew made
was the comparison factor.
I know I've mentioned this in the past,
but we do need to be aware
of whether the people we follow
are adding to our joy or taking from it.
If someone is taking from it,
maybe unfollow, mute,
or find other ways to stop that
from continuing to happen.
Now, for this week's homework,
I want you to pay attention
to how much time you spend on social media.
And rate how you feel before you interact on it
versus how you feel after.
Like, rating it as a 10 would mean,
I'm the most excited and happy I have ever been.
And a zero would be,
like the lowest of low depressive symptoms.
And what I'm trying to help you figure out
is whether social media is helpful
or hurtful for you and your mental health.
You know, being more mindful of your time
and experience online.
And that will help us be more able
to make changes where needed.
Once you've completed the homework,
let me know in the comments down below
how social media and constant content
makes you feel, does it overwhelm you
or stress you out?
Or does it help you feel connected and not alone?
Or maybe a little bit of both, I don't know.
Let me know and I will see you next week.
Bye.
- I can remember a couple times
when I was very very stressed,
it made me kind of feel sick.
I remember one time I thought
I was gonna get fired.
(soothing music)