yeah and I'll get right into it I've I
work for svenska Dogbot which is the
newspaper one of the the second largest
with daily circulation swing and then I
ask sometimes on Twitter and Facebook if
they excited what kind of people do you
think I should interview and and your
name has come up a lot I think you've
heard this before so and then recently I
wrote piecing in collects all the
freedom in in Sweden and and you shared
it on twitter and facebook so then i
that's when i mail you because then i
thought that perhaps now I have a
perhaps now you will respond on I can
get me into you
yeah well quill apt has really turned
out to be quite quite the platform man
yes you know I mean it's it's I'm really
I did an interview with Claire layman I
interviewed her which I haven't released
yet but I but will in the next probably
two weeks something like that but she's
hitting it out of the park as far as
aren't far as I'm concerned it kind of
reminds me of what magazine like
Harper's used to be or at the Atlantic
before before mainstream journalism
collapsed virtually completely and
became so politicized so yeah well it's
been really impressive I would just ask
that it's something that like a mother
of two or one yeah raelia
and just being fed up with the political
correctness of her psychology department
I think it was and then she starts quill
it and now we're all like sharing in her
project from all over the world yeah
yeah it's amazing it's really amazing
and she well she has really good
editorial sense she must be really smart
that that girl yeah I would say so too
and but I'll try I don't know if you
remember I'll just begin by asking you
about the Sweden Sweden case I don't
know if you remember what the article
was about but I wrote about Eric green
Marv is a professor at
political science department and he was
forced to include Judith Butler but you
did Butler on his literally oh yeah
right Judith Butler yeah yeah great yeah
great
and the course is about modern society
and its and its critics so it's
basically about the reactionary forces
and left-wing extremist forces during
the turn of the last century so in the
early 20th century and late 19th century
and then new leaf Butler and actually
one of the course not Eric but his other
his teaching assistant interviewed at a
you get butter and she said that she is
agreed with the method so is she agreed
with the professors that she did she
thought that the academic freedom was
more important than being forced to
teach about feminist authors and gender
science so she was actually on the other
side gender science yeah exactly is by
no means a scientist or even a credible
academic as far as I'm concerned I think
she's a straight-out ideologue and and
the fact that anybody would be forced
well first of all force to include
anything on their curriculum I think is
absolutely reprehensible it's talk down
interference with academic freedom and
it's extraordinarily dangerous because
once that precedent is established then
you open the door for political
interference in the like like organized
political interference from outside the
Academy and it'll collapse very rapidly
under certain we saw that happening in
Germany and also in the Soviet Union
it's like that can happen so quickly
that people can't can't it's almost
impossible to believe now we're in this
weird situation where the same thing
seems to be happening to a large degree
within the Academy itself and so and
what to do about that is by no means
obvious but but I don't think that
allowing external control of any sort
over the contents of the courses that
Professor teach professors teaches it's
a very very bad idea
we they have a rule rule of thumb they
call it but it's basically it's much
more a rule than a rule of thumb but at
least 40% of all the literature has to
be written by women so if you're
unbelievable
if you're holding a course for example
about porn in society and it's create
critics with a lot of primary literature
from the turn of the century then you
run into a problem because women weren't
so they weren't a lot of women who were
respect them oh you know is so
unbelievably I would say resentful I
really think that's the fundamental
issue here to push a dr. resentful and
uninformed to push a doctrine like that
look it's unbelievably widespread so
I'll give you an example that's very
that's very similar our prime minister
Justin Trudeau announced in 2015 that
half the cabinet that he put together
would be women he's right the fact that
only approximately I think it was 20 to
25 percent of the elected officials were
female and so what he basically admitted
as far as I'm concerned art
was two things number one he was
incapable of judging people on their
competence because when you put together
something like the cabinet for a country
what you do is you find the most
competent people period because it's so
bizarre that it even has to be said
because it actually turns out that the
cabinet is important and so to me all he
did was default on his set his central
moral obligation to screen every single
one of his members of parliament with
exceeding care and to pick the most
qualified people and his rationale was
that it was 2015 you know so and we to
reduce competence to racial ethnic
gender identity something like that is
absolutely appalling move
philosophically as well as far as I'm
concerned to assume that diversity is
somehow represented by group membership
there's no evidence for that there's
absolutely no scientific evidence for
that whatsoever in fact the scientific
evidence suggests quite the contrary
which is that there's more variability
with
in groups than there is between groups
which is actually an antidote to the
central racist claim right because the
central racist claim is there's more
difference between groups than there is
difference within them and so you know
you seen one black person you've seen
them all and well well this is we
actually have in Sweden it's cold
I think the translation is gender
mainstreaming in English but it's
basically you have to include gender
scientific perspectives into all this is
happening within all Swedish
universities right now so you have to
include the this perspective of gender
gender scientific gender scientific
perspective in all parts of the
university so it's not just literature
lists and courses it's also the who you
gonna recruit the number of and we have
a goal in Sweden from the government
this is all the government's doing and
we have a goal that I think it's 40% of
all the professor's by 2020 should be
women right which means that if you're a
young man who's entering academia the
probability that you're gonna get a job
is zero yeah right and that yeah the
same things happening here so for
example this there are minister of
science who was one of the people let's
say selected because of Trudeau's
insistence upon gender equity in his
cabinet you know he could have picked a
number of women that was proportionate
to the number of women elected like even
that I wouldn't have agreed with because
I think he should have gone on straight
competence and and taken on the heavy
moral burden of trying to figure out
what competence meant but just but no it
had to be 50/50 because I guess that was
you know this is a very snide thing to
say but that seems to be at the level of
arithmetic intelligence that he could
manifest no it's and and one of his
ministers our minister of science has we
have this program called count the
Canada
research chairs and the Canada Research
Chair zwarst up so that Canadian
universities would have an additional
amount of money to hire the most
qualified people they possibly could for
senior named chair positions and the
idea was to attract international talent
like high-level now what has happened
because it wasn't very well designed
this program was that Canadian
universities mostly ended up poaching
from each other which was you know
relatively counterproductive because it
just elevated the salaries of the
professors which maybe they deserved
rather than bringing in a lot of
international talent but men were
radically over-represented in Canada
research chairs now the minister of
science is very annoyed about this and
thinks that that's a consequence of
systemic you know misogyny or some some
bloody thing failing to note entirely
see if you look at scientific
productivity it's very interesting
because an gender the median professor
male and female publish approximately
the same amount so the typical but the
the exceptional professors are almost
all men even though the typical male and
female can't really be distinguished in
academia if you take that tiny subset of
hyper productive professors they're
almost all male now why that is is my
suspicions arts that is pretty
straightforward I suspect that the
reason it is is because to be a hyper
productive in any given field means you
have to be absolutely single-minded and
obsessed about it as well as being very
intelligent conscientious so it's rare
right you have to be intelligent say
99th percentile
conscientious 95th percentile so that's
hardly anybody right there and then you
have to have the time available to do
nothing whatsoever but concentrate on
your work no family no friends nothing
like that if you're gonna be at the very
top of your profession because obviously
you'll get out competed otherwise now
that's a lot harder for women because
well for obvious reasons I mean win so
so the mirror
fact that most of these people were see
the other thing people don't understand
is that people can on average be very
similar so their distributions but if
you go way out onto the edges of the
distribution small differences in the
middle can make massive differences at
the edge and so and that's the kind of
phenomena you see where you are
selecting the highest qualified people
it's a it's an edge of the distribution
phenomena so here's an example this is
really cool one so if you look at the
overlap between male and female
aggression it's pretty high so if you
randomly select a man and a woman from
the general population and you bet that
the woman was the more aggressive of the
two you'd be right 40 percent of the
time which is actually pretty often so
but if you go way the hell out to where
let's say you only imprisoned the one in
100 most aggressive people they're all
men yeah even though on average you know
it's 60/40 you go out to the 99th
percentile it's all men which is why
almost all the people in prison are men
now so people well it's it's yeah what
you're describing in Sweden that's the
death of the universities it's another
it's another sign of like the
universities are killing themselves
they're hiring adjunct professors and
not faculty members like I think it's up
to 70 percent in some American
universities they have no salary no
power no autonomy no job security
nothing it's it's it's you know some of
these adjuncts teach four or five
courses a year and make $25,000 so it's
read about one who lived in her car yeah
okay so they've jacked up tuition
honorary materials yeah exactly
well that there you go you know if the
little Marxist or you hahahaha
they've jacked up tuition to the point
where it's unsustainable
they made it impossible for kids who
rack up tuition debt to declare
bankruptcy because they've taken that
out of the bankruptcy laws now you can
take away their driver's license if they
don't pay their their their tuition
their student loan bills so it's
basically indentured serve
dude right the administration has become
completely top-heavy the Academy is
completely infested by these terrible
equity ideas that you're laying out
I mean it's and and the people who are
in the radical leftist disciplines which
increasingly are spreading their
influence out through the entire
universities our tenured and won't be
moved for 25 years so as far as I can
tell it's it's done and I would would
like to ask you or you take about on
gender science and all these like ethnic
studies and because I was a sociology
student back in 2004 and I was 22 years
old and so a lot of these perspectives
we were taught post-modernism and queer
queer feminism and all all these things
and and it was I mean I was just
starting out as a student so I but I
must have been wired faulty because he
didn't I was very critical about it but
but all those perspectives was was back
then was fringe in Sweetman so like like
identity politics
everything that's now in the mainstream
was at the institution back then and the
professor's they were they are the same
I mean and they are now it's their their
PhDs and master students that are taking
over the the public discourse so even
though they lost a lot of debates back
then and they still do like public
debates they're still teaching students
year after year of the year might ask
you about that and like oh and also
about your fatigue of gender the
understudies in Swedish it's called
gender science because we turn all this
into science oh yeah so it's not even
studies it's science here that was a
good move on on on the ideologues parts
that's free-weight this mode so it's a
two-pronged question but
yeah well I think well I listed about
seven things I think that are killing
the universities I actually think that
like I've watched major institutions
collapse and be privy to the manner in
which that occurs like what happens is
that as the enterprise pathologize is
the good people leave the people who
have other things that they could do
they leave first those are the most
productive and and talented people as
soon as the most productive leave then
the bloody thing just spirals downhill
because what what's gonna happen you
you've you know because the rule is is
that within a certain discipline
whatever it happens to be the square
root of the number of people in the
discipline produce half the productive
work so if a university has let's say a
thousand professors thirty of them
produce half the publications right
which is staggering right it's
staggering
that's the kirino distribution or prices
law and so and those people are often
have more opportunities than they know
what to do with and so as soon as
whatever they're doing becomes unstable
it's like they go off and do other
things and then then the institution
loses its most productive people and
that's it it's done it can't recover
from that and so and the introduction of
these so-called science disciplines that
we call studies disciplines you know it
was a market lowering of standards it
involved a market lowering of academic
standards a blurring of what actually
constitute a discipline refusal
whatsoever to consider anything
methodological rigorous cuz anything
goes including author what do they call
that off no Auto ethnography which is
where you just write a diary essentially
about your own experiences that's got
this fancy name so Auto ethnography as
part of gender science you know it's
positively Orwellian and
it's and the other thing that's
interesting about that is that what's
happened is that the people who have
these radical viewpoints have been given
a permanent signing here right there
they're their state and tuition
sponsored activists who can spend every
single moment of their time on what I
would consider their Fifth Column agenda
so we're basically funding a cohort of
people whose stated purpose is to
demolish the patriarchy you know one of
the things Carl Jung said which I really
liked and haven't talked about that much
is that the unconscious representation
of men in the female psyche he called
the animus and the animus was always in
his estimation because of the dream
analysis he did and so forth that
although the unconscious representation
of a woman in a man's psyche was an
individual woman the unconscious
representation of the male psyche in the
female unconscious was men as a group
and there's a very large number of women
and and also some men whose conception
of maleness is has been damaged very
badly by their failure to establish any
positive relationship with any male
whatsoever in their developmental
history and then they project this
paranoid representation of what
constitutes hierarchical masculinity on
to the world and then fight to bring it
down and it's and the thing is they're
being successful that's the problem is
this is this is this is another what
when I was actually I know that you were
very popular with a lot of young men but
I was actually introduced to you by a
mother of two so professor in education
so he's really she's not dinner at home
so to speak ideologically or but one
thing that that's worrying me is the I
mean there are certain certain reports
of idea certain ideologies that take
religious overtones and you know and I
think that the feminism has some of
those characteristics I mean in
Christianity we're all born sinful and
we need to come to grips with our
sinfulness and in the end only God's
grace and forgiveness can redeem us and
in Lutheranism at least it's we don't
can we can't be forgiven by priests it's
only god yeah yeah it's a doctrine
there's no escape
Rob and I totally sympathize it with it
even though I I don't in a little ways
but I realized but but within feminism
the sin is situated within males instead
so not only with within males but within
males as a collective you know which is
even see the thing about the Christian
doctrine that you referred to is that it
makes each individual responsible for
their own darkness now the Catholics say
look that's unbearable and people need
to have the slate wiped clean now and
then and confession will do that and
there's an intermediary and you
considered that merciful and there's
some real power in that argument you
know that the cynical argument is well
you can just wipe the slate clean at any
time and you don't have to bear any
responsibility but I think that's
cynical the Protestants put themselves
in a much tougher position because
there's no escape and but the upside of
all of that is is that the darkness is
to be regarded as within not without and
yeah and as soon as you move away from
that then while you're you're the good
person and so is everyone that thinks
like you and all the evil is wherever
you want to put it and and then as soon
as the thing that's really dangerous
about that especially if evil is
conceptualized as contemptible and and
parasitic and and using disgust related
language for example instead of fear
related language then the logical
directive is to purify it and boy that's
that's not good and this is something
that I think is happening if I've read
some a dissertation about how male
feminists think about themselves and how
they go about having sex for example
and one of the men said that he's his
way to approach sex was that he didn't
take any initiative because he he would
defile the defile that the whole
situation and the woman
yeah well it's like Andrea Dworkin a
back in the 70s that horrible she's a
horrible creature or Andrea Dworkin
and you know she said that if men
engaged in sexual behavior with an erect
penis that that was that that was
equivalent to violence right that was
equivalent to rape well so I mean I
don't even know what to say about that
except that that's exactly what Andrea
Dworkin was like and she was a real
heroine to the radical feminists you
know her and was someone else around
that period of time and rude Catherine
MacKinnon I think her name was equally
equally well I think I read a book you
know yeah well you yeah yeah I mean from
my perspective as a clinician those
people have clear every indication of
serious personality disorders and I
actually think to some degree that we've
made a haven for people who have serious
personality pathology in these in these
pseudo disciplines in the universities
and you know you said something
interesting you said that you know when
you went to - when you took your
sociology degree that these were
basically fringe views now they're
Center views in the university but also
implying that they're increasingly
dominant views in society and that's the
thing is that people think that these
are somehow ivory tower arguments but
what happens in the universities happens
in society five to ten years later and
so and that's exactly what's happening
right now so and and well I think this
this leads us into that me to debate for
that because you have people in swing
right now I think the me - phenomenon is
much larger in swing than in any other
country I mean it's it's dominated the
media for one month now and
every profession has a claim has an me
to sort of article with thousands of
women signing onto it so the teachers
and the lawyers and doctors so but what
one thing is interesting about this is
how the men are handling it because
there are a lot of men writing that I as
a man have a responsibility for this
happening I as a man as a male am
responsible and I'm guilty and actually
it was one so there's a lot of articles
like that and then one of them one of
the men that was accused of doing
something inappropriate it was the
former reportedly before the left
radical party and the thing he had done
was was not so reprehensible he had
approached a woman and then she had said
no and he had apologized but then she
didn't accept that and no no he's under
investigation police investigation and
we have this sort of witch hunt going
I've thought of this is that almost all
men of all manifestations of male
sexuality are going to be brought under
legal control and he actually wrote an
article that said yes I am responsible
and because I say I am responsible I am
better than the majority of men's
reactions to this so actually he turned
the thing that he was being under
investigation into because he showed
that because he admitted he showed that
he was better
yeah so it's very powers day I mean the
whole idea was that you were supposed to
come to terms with your class guilt and
then confess and then and then indicate
that you could be brought back into the
ideological fold properly the thing is
it's a lot of muddy thinking it's like
well men should take responsibility for
their aggressive sexuality and they
should incorporate it right because if
you repress it it just comes out in the
most ugly way so I mean part of the
ideas that men boys should be socialized
like little girls you know but that's
complete rubbish in fact even little
girls
perhaps shouldn't be socialized like
little girls but whatever I mean that's
beside the point that aggressive
capacity that's associated with
sexuality as well as Freud pointed out
so long ago needs to be integrated
within the personality so that it's
under control right and then it's it's
the hint of darkness and it's the
capacity for malevolence but it's but
it's brought under but it's brought
under civilized regulation and so then
you get to have your cake and eat it too
right you can be strong and potentially
dangerous and mysterious and all of
those things that that are definitely
attractive that there are attractive
features of men not only to women but
also to other men so you have to take
responsibility for that but that doesn't
mean that you should identify yourself
as the member of a guilty group because
of a class-based accusation right that's
just you're not guilty as the member of
a class I mean that's part of the reason
that I've been pushing so hard against
these postmodern neo-marxist ideas
because one of their essential
predicates is that you can be guilty as
the member of a class and that is I
don't know if there's a more dangerous
idea then than that there might be
because you know there's a very large
number of extremely dangerous ideas but
that one's that one's up near the top
yeah it's happening to great degree in
the United States to lesser so in Canada
but every day there's another you know
slew of influential men who are being
outed for their past sexual misbehavior
and you know and that and and that's
that's uh I don't have much to say about
that except that to use that as evidence
for the group based guilt of men as such
yeah well whatever whatever it's a hell
of a lot worse before it gets better I'm
afraid but I think this is also I would
like to ask you about this as well
because as a as a man going up in in a
country like Sweden you have to I would
say that the I think a lot of boys at
least are confused when it needs to be a
man and and then you have these public
figures adult males admitting to
collective guilt and trying to be sort
of the new new male which admits to
guilt
yeah then feminists the good man and if
you're a castrated and fat tomcat of a
man resting on top of the warm TV who's
who's what would you say moral virtue
consists in his harmlessness exactly
assessed and what's I mean how would
stead wise to give to because when I
find I see a lot of men trying to find
their way in
yeah right you find out what it means to
be a man and I think that's a lot of
them turns to you and or a person like
Joker willing and ready interviewed you
and and because you're you're and why do
you think that is I mean is there
because it doesn't seems you you're not
sugarcoating your life you're not giving
them no the funny thing about well
there's a couple of things that I'm
doing that are different from what
people usually do you know so in the
last 20 years the constant message to
young people is self-esteem self-esteem
feel good about yourself it's like I
don't buy that I think that you look at
yourself in the mirror and you think
Jesus Christ I could be a hell of a lot
better than I am yeah and so and the
thing is there's nothing more
complimentary to tell a young person
than that it's like look at you you're a
wreck grow the hell up there's so much
more to you than your manifesting then
you can hardly imagine it's like what
you think that's a criticism it's like
no it's not it's a great compliment it's
like look at how much
more you could bring out into the world
get your aggression under control
strengthen yourself like take on some
responsibility see if you have enough
bloody courage to tell the truth put
your life together stop whining and the
man eat that up because no one's ever
told them that which just makes breaks
my heart yeah it's so bad
and you know the boys are pulling out of
everything they're pulling out a
university they're pulling out of life
they're pulling out of marriage and and
because of that they're more awkward and
unsophisticated than they would
otherwise be and much more prone to make
sexual errors some of which are you know
predatory malevolence in the small
proportion of cases but it's another one
of those situations you know like
imagine that one in a hundred men are
sexual predators yeah probably maybe
it's one in 50 but let's go with one in
a hundred
well they that small proportion commit
all of the sexual predation like if you
look at criminals
it's a Pareto distribution again five
percent of the criminals produce
something like well the overwhelming
majority of the crimes right it's a
small coterie of specialized people who
are responsible for all the criminality
lots of people are in prison because
they did one Highness thing you know
like they got enraged or drunk and did
something violent but there's the serial
criminal types and they're the ones that
are they do all they they like we had
one guy in Toronto for example who ran a
bike theft ring and they finally nailed
him and like there weren't any bikes
stolen in Toronto after that it was just
him and his a coterie of you know
organized bike thieves and these guys
that are being outed these serial
predators they are responsible like one
one spreaded predatory guy can prey on
who knows 500 females thousand females
in a lifetime you know so it's a little
seems like I mean this is a lot of
guys I was one of these guys who sort of
turned away from society for for a while
like into computer games and like this
slacker identity where which is sort of
I guess it's always been there like you
to turn to like away from all
responsibilities and go with the dream
world but the opportunities to do this
it's so much larger knowledge yeah well
it's it's the lost voice like in Peter
Pan right there in Neverland and they
never grow up and Peter Pan is their
leader that's that's the story and it's
not surprising because it's easier to do
it's easier to occupy yourself trivially
than it is to do something difficult so
like there's a big tendency in that
direction to begin with because it's
easier to do nothing than to take
responsibility it's easier to play games
than to plan for the future it's easier
to be resentful and and angry than it is
to be you know to shoulder your
vulnerability properly and then when you
add on to that the idea that if you go
out into the world and try to strive
forward that you're nothing but a
predatory patriarch then well it's just
one more it's just the icing on the cake
you know I had a friend who was like
that he pulled back from the world and
Billiton because he believed that active
masculinity was a pathological force and
he poisoned himself terribly because of
that and he committed suicide when he
was 40 he hooked an exhaust you know a
hose onto his exhaust pipe and gassed
himself up in the mountains in Alberta
and that was the logical consequence of
his self-hatred it's like well if you're
so pathological why don't you just do
yourself in and hiding like that isn't
you know it's not that's obviously not
the full-fledged manifestation of that
but but it's it's leave me it's on the
road so and so yeah I've been talking to
all these young guys they come to my
biblical lectures for example and the
message is always the same it's like
stand the hell up get the hell out there
in the world take local
responsibility put yourself together
because there's nothing more dangerous
than a weak man and the problem is is
that we're encouraging men to be weak
because we have this pathological idea
that there's that strength and tyranny
are the same thing and that's that
animus I was talking about earlier
though women it's not only women but the
feminist types let's say who insist upon
the pathology of the patriarchy cannot
distinguish between competence and power
they see everything because they they
have this vague and undifferentiated
sense of masculinity they say they see
everything that is associated with
Authority as equivalent to tyranny
failing to understand completely that
Authority in a properly function society
is based on competence they don't
believe in confidence anyways you know
that's part of the whole postmodern yeah
that's just a coaster to keep power yeah
exactly well everything's about power
for the bloody post modernists and that
also excuses their use of power yes and
this is I mean in Sweden we have girls
have always outperformed boys in school
ever since we started having schools in
the 19th century in the middle 19th
century girls have been outperforming
boys and being better at sitting quietly
in a classroom but the the last 20-30
years
the divide between girls and boys is
widening Sweden it's widening in other
countries too but in Sweden it's really
it's really you guys you guys are ahead
of the curve so congratulations on that
so I'm proud about this I'm not so proud
about that
but so and actually when you talk to
people in swimming they're more worried
about bringing up boys than bringing up
girls nowadays because girls they can be
girls or they can be like boys yeah
exactly
the boys are problem boys and and you
have that feeling we didn't like boys
yeah exactly
yep boys should perhaps be like more
like girls but they should
definitely will not be like boys they
should not play war they should not
compete so much well the competition
thing is really interesting because yeah
the people who are who are hyper
cooperative you know regard competition
as a positive evil without understand
without they they have no understanding
whatsoever of developmental psychology
you know one of the things I really like
John Piaget and you know one of the most
intelligent things he ever said about
children's games competitive games was
that the competition is nested inside a
higher order structure of cooperation so
you think about a hockey game we can
talk about that because we're Swedes and
Canadians don't you say well are the
hockey players competing or cooperating
and the answer is what you have to a
micro analysis so fundamentally they're
cooperating because they all agree to
abide by the same set of rules
so they occupy the same perceptual space
they occupy the same value space because
the value is score goals and win the
game so that provides the overarching
frame so fundamentally they're
cooperating now within that they're
competing because it's team against team
and even within a team it's individuals
vying for let's say it athletic
supremacy but it's also more complicated
than that because a hockey isn't one
game it's a sequence of iterated games
and the proper strategy is if you're an
individual athlete is to adopt a
strategy that makes you a victor across
iterated games and that means you have
to cooperate with your teammates and
even with the with the other team if
you're going to sustain your career
across time you know so you get
honorable very honorable hockey players
say like Wayne Gretzky who were
unbelievably stellar in their individual
performance but also great team players
and inspirations to those who played
against them perfect you know it so
that's a really good example of
well-developed masculinity and that's
all shunted off into pathological
competition by fools who are motivated
by hatred and resentment and who are
willfully blind to the complexities of
the situation so it's the wrong
it really is the rise of the like of the
of the the goddess of the underworld
it's it's it's the right way to think
about it and I mean this is also I would
like to move on to discussing myths and
God a little bit but this is so
interesting so I would just say one more
ask one more thing because I if you if
you talk to these people about how you
can reconstruct homosexuals I mean can
you said can you send them to a straight
camp I mean all of them would say that's
horrible but if you ask about how came
deconstruct and then reconstruct boys
and their masculinity
all of them are aboard so yeah it's part
of the yeah it's a very inconsistent
well I mean one of the things I
complained about last year with regards
to this bill CCC 16 legislation in
Canada as I said look you're
instantiating a social constructionist
view of gender gender expression sexual
proclivity all of these things into the
law okay so it's socially constructed
okay so wake up the Conservatives who
have been opposing homosexuality for the
last hundred years have used nothing but
social constructionist arguments they
basically say well if it's socially
constructed or an individual choice
which is by the way now it's tan she
ated into Canadian law then why the hell
can't you just be re-educated out of it
or just drop it if it's just an
individual choice well I tried to say
you're you're playing with fire the fire
that will consume you well but you know
nobody nobody no I shouldn't say nobody
you know these arguments are these
arguments are subtle and and they're not
easy to follow and so and the problem is
is that the consequences of producing
legislation like that unfold over
decades not minutes so I don't know did
you see what happened yet Wilfred
Laurier University in Canada last week
two weeks ago
Lindsay Shepard does that ring a bell
and I listen to the conversation she
recorded yeah so in Canada now three
things are happening the first is
despite the fact that I predicted this
and that the only reason my reputation
was ever let's say tarnished was because
I predicted that this was going to
happen I'm still being vilified by
people who even who who are admitting
nonetheless that what happened at
wilfred laurier was reprehensible okay
so that's one thing the second thing is
the people at Laurier who used who
accused lindsay of breaking the canadian
federal and provincial laws are being
accused of misinterpreting those laws
which they aren't as far as i'm
concerned but that enables people to
save face and third and most dreadfully
fair number of faculty members and
public commentators are claiming that
rambu khanna and Pimlott and joel who
were the interlocutors in the
inquisition are the true victims but
really oh absolutely because now now
that people have been well first of all
they were only standing up for trans
rights and second well because they've
been the target of substantial criticism
let's say like overwhelming punishing
brutal criticism unending for weeks well
they're that they're now victims because
that's just not fair and so when the
president of wilfred laurier university
apologized to lindsay Shepherd
she also said but you know I also feel I
also feel that what has happened to the
faculty members in the aftermath of this
faculty members and administrators was
also wrong it's like it's that typical
thing you know you see this when kids
get bullied in schools now is that the
idiot intervenors and they're and
they're blind humanitarian impulses
bring the bully and the victim into the
principal's office to discuss it
assuming equal equal causal
what would you call responsibility on
the part of the victim and the
perpetrator and they think that well if
they just had a nice talk about it then
wicked could be settled not
understanding at all that the bully
who's let's say one of these one in a
hundred predator types is just gonna
stand on the outside of the school
ground and wait for the victim to come
by and just pound the hell out of them
because that's how bullies work it's
like well we can settle it like
reasonable people and it's like yeah
right you're so goddamn naive that you
know if evil ever popped out and made a
face at you which it likely will you'd
be scared into post-traumatic stress
disorders so fast you wouldn't know what
hit you and I've seen that plenty of
times in my clinical practice so and
yeah all this Lindsey Shepherd that your
your you know transfer I've written
about these issues in Sweden as one of
the few that's written about who's not
an activist and recently I wrote about
how it's coincides with autism diagnosis
so we're and I think it's the same in
the United States limits yeah yeah I
mean the number of of especially young
women who's never had any doubts about
their sexual about their gender identity
but then they find like-minded people
with problems connecting socially on the
internet and all the sudden they decided
I'm I'm not a woman I'm a man yeah
they most of them have diagnosis within
the autism spectrum and to even say this
and say that this is something we need
to investigate is sort of transphobic
because then you're you're questioning
the motives within the person you know
so you you you're basically saying that
it's not maybe it's not the gender
identity you're feeling that's that's
full trade compliance well it's like
it's gonna be it's gonna be worse yeah
well it's gonna get worse because look
look here's the logical fallacy not all
transsexuals have mental illness yeah
but many people with mental illness are
going to be confused about their
identity right so that the pool of
people confused about their identity is
extraordinarily large now if you produce
a social fad which is exactly what we're
doing with gender transformation then
everyone who's unstable is going to
gravitate very rapidly towards that fad
that's happened many times with
different forms of pathology so for
example there's a book called the
discovery of the unconscious by an
existentialist psychotherapist named
Omri elenberg a which is a great book
great book and he tracks the cyclical
recurrence of multiple personality
disorder over the last 300 years so a
case will be reported after everyone
forgets about it for a generation or two
a case will be reported and then it
spreads like wildfire and there's
multiple personality everywhere and then
people get skeptical about it and the
reports drop off to 0 and it goes
underground again and then three
generations again somebody reports a
case history and poof up it comes again
and so the there are these and Carl Yuma
wrote about this a lot there are these
psychic epidemics that occur from time
to time and the same thing happened for
example in the 1980s when there was a
huge outcry in the United States in
particular about satanic ritual abuse in
daycares and that produced an absolute
uproar for like five years and anyway
did you have that yeah one of the
professor's here in uppsala tips on
University she wrote a book about and
most men of power were in on it in the
husband right and even though it was I
mean it's blatantly it's it's it's crazy
yeah but the gender scientists yeah
because it would criticize it was sort
of yeah he she is actually one of the
architects behind our how we view men's
violence against women
but you also wrote about these satanic
rituals that men in power had against
children but it wasn't in daycare it was
just like against with children
everywhere ah yeah yeah there's a great
book written in the United States called
Satan silenced by a social worker and a
lawyer that investigated that satanic
ritual abuse epidemic and it makes the
Salem witch hunts look like nothing I
mean the longest prison sentences in
history were handed out for their
hypothetical perpetrators of these
satanic ritual abuse they dug under
whole town's in places looking for the
tunnels where the where the sacrifices
were being performed I mean they
invented whole new categories of
clinical diagnosis late onset female
sexual predator of whom there are zero
right that is a category that does not
exist unbelievable it sounds like a
great book I mean like a great horror
horror movie or something like these
satanic circles but to actually believe
in it it's really crazy
yep I would like to move on to if you
have time I would like to be wanted to
the question question about religion
because I'm really interested in in in
myth and religion and and them what one
thing that's I mean if you call
something a myth then it's probably not
all it's not not alive anymore perhaps I
mean if you're actually calling it a
myth if you really believe in it you're
not believing that it is a myth and so
where we are now we will be studying the
the Bible like scientifically and and so
we construct my first subject in the
university was really just studies and
then you deconstruct the Bible and you
learn about when everything was great
and everything but what would you do
right now this you sort of you're making
the Bible in your Bible lectures you
make it accessible for people that of
our our age or our epoch as a plan yeah
and people who
I don't think what Matt you wouldn't
have naturally turned to the Bible for
counsel well you're you I think you know
it's completely it's just an indication
of how surreal the current circumstances
really are I've been selling out the
theater that I booked in Toronto for
these biblical lectures and it's all
full of it's almost all young man like
they're not that young you know they're
between say eighteen and thirty
something like that although they're you
know there's women in there there's
older people too but that's the main
audience and it's like well that's crazy
right that's impossible
that that's happening yeah but but it
would attempt to relieve fi the myth
yeah and so what's your what's your take
take on why why is I asked Richard
Dawkins this when I interviewed him like
there were people there were worried
about the post mortem challenge to
everything like like deconstructing
everything and so you you look for
something firm in your in your life and
what I see you do is and I would like
you to your thoughts on it is that you
bring some like affirm you're trying to
bring in a sort of a firmer foot tall in
yes exactly that it's like I'm
journeying to the bottom of the ocean to
rescue the father from the from the
fire-breathing whale like that's exactly
yet it's like the thing is is that when
everything shakes then you look for the
foundation right and to me the
foundation the thing the West got right
is the divinity of the individual that's
right it's true and it's the myth idea
this is partly where I had a discussion
with Sam Harris you know that was quite
a difficult discussion to discussions I
wasn't in the best of physical health
when I had them unfortunately but that's
life
but you talk when you talk about myths
you know it sounds like untruth but I
think about it sort of as meta truth
it's truer than true in some sense
because it consists of abstractions that
have guided human behavior properly for
forever insofar as human beings have
being successful and even insofar as we
define success it's embedded within
these mythological ideas which are ideas
that we act out essentially not ideas
that we hold or or believe or state
they're ideas that we act out and the
idea of the divine individual is at the
center of our law which is why for
example even if you're accused of murder
even if there's overwhelming evidence
against you you still have value that
the state cannot merely trample on and
that's well first of all it's
unbelievable that that's the case
because you know the typical barbaric
society let's say which is what we're
trying to reproduce very rapidly is the
one that assumes that if you're accused
of something we might as well just shoot
you on the off chance that you're guilty
that's way easier to adopt that as a
principle and it and it certainly
satiates the the bloodlust of the mob
much more effectively the idea that we
could have constructed a worldview that
put the pathetic weak malevolent
insufficient vulnerable individual at
the center of the value structure is
just it's an accomplishment whose
grandeur cannot possibly be overstated
and we we are the beneficiaries of that
system we live within its protective
confines and we're doing everything we
possibly can to destroy it as rapidly as
possible so so you
Joseph Campbell which it was one of my
idols
I read the hero with a thousand faces
listen to his power of myth lectures
because I I mean as a young man I loved
Star Wars and Lord of the Rings and then
you sort of you read his work and you
find out that okay so you're Lucas he
based his storyline on so he changed his
story like fit more into the hero the
the monomyth
the hero's journey story and he said
that you need you need sort of a
living myth or pathology to be to have
psychological health and have spiritual
health you need to live within a sort of
a living mythology yes and absolutely
yeah well the mythology tells you who
you really are yeah like you know you
you really are a divine son of God
I mean people people people and you know
you actually know that because you feel
guilty about not living up to your
potential
why in the world would you possibly feel
that but everyone feels that if they
have any sense at all unless they're
narcissistic or psychopathic everyone
feels that burden of the perfection to
which they have the perfection to which
they have not yet aspired nor attained
and so and that's a testament to the to
the overwhelming potential that
characterizes each individual and that's
really what I'm trying to point out in
the biblical lectures there's these
continual stories about the nature of
humanity and the nature of proper being
in the face of the tragedy and
malevolence of life and the Bible is
Western the Western world's attempt to
to to formulate that as a as a
comprehensible set of stories and also a
set of principles for behaviors it's the
collective struggle of our of our
imagination stretched across tens of
thousands of years maybe hundreds of
thousands of years maybe even more than
that you know because some of these
stories the snoring the story of
confronting the malevolent serpent like
I believe that in one form or another
that story is if you also consider it as
something that could be acted out that
stories at least 60 million years old
so because Lynn is Valdis anthropologist
at UCLA has demonstrated quite nicely
that our tree dwelling relatives
co-evolved with snakes and our continual
battle with snakes and predatory
reptiles was part of what gave us our
acute vision oh I made these yeah you
know I know I know that I have to ask
this because this is one
I'm seeing you answer this question is
that do you believe in God and I saw a
YouTube video with you when you said
that you didn't like the question
because you were you're being boxed in
and I sort of I felt that because one of
the things me and my wife have been
wrestling with is we've talked a lot
about this I said what do we mean when
we say that we believe in God because in
in Sweden it to be Swedish to be
Christian it was sort of what it means
today to say that you're Swedish so if
you say to do a Christian you were sort
of a good family father you had a lot of
values within that so you would be like
a good Christian man is sort of today
when you say you're a good Swedish man
perhaps so it used to mean a lot more
but then you had the evangelical
Christians criticizing exactly this and
saying that you are lost contact with
God and then they meant it in a much
smaller sense and so I they tend to
confuse the biblical stories with lit
with empirical history yeah and it's not
surprising they do that because they're
trying to defend their faith against
let's call it the postmodern assault or
even the modernist assault for that
matter I have some sympathy with their
motivations but the problem is is that
they don't understand that not all truth
is empirical truth in fact the
fundamental truths as far as I could
tell paradoxically enough are Darwinian
and they actually line up with religious
truths which is the point I've been
trying to make when I discuss such
issues with people like Sam Harris like
Sam is a very very smart guy but he's he
worships the intellect that's the first
thing I would say and the second thing
is that I was never able to push him to
his solution he'd never let me go there
because you know his idea is that we
could rationally order society so that
the well-being of people was maximized
and you know he even said - I think it
was I can't remember which interview it
was but he said explicitly to the person
that he was interviewing that he could
sit down right now and come up with a
religious system that was much more
rational and appropriate than any of the
ones that have
that have existed to date and I think
well you know you're falling right into
that rationalist utopian pitfall there
your nurse not that smart no one can do
that and as soon as you do it you end up
where the Socialists like the radical
Soviet socialists or the Nazi utopians
ended up we will be speaking Esperanto
by now though yeah well like yes exactly
exactly
rational language them then Swedish much
more most languages are yeah yeah well
it's it's like you know one of the
things I really liked about Dostoyevsky
is that this was a notes from
underground he he just states it very
clearly he said you know the one thing
that you cannot claim about the history
of the world and he means the history of
being is that it's rational and it isn't
that he's criticizing the idea that you
could use scientists scientific
investigation and rationality to lay out
a clear representation of objective
reality what he's saying is that if you
take the terrible suffering and
malevolence into account as fundamental
realities that a rationalist perspective
is absolutely insufficient to tell the
story and that's there's no doubt about
that
it's just rationality just breaks down
in the face of those things it hits an
obstacle that it cannot contend with so
you need something else and you know
there's this great image of Christ as
Pantocrator very very old image I'm
fortunately can't remember which
Cathedral it's represented in but it's a
great image and I'm having one of them
carved for me right now it's so it's a
medieval image of Christ and his face is
divided into two halves so it's very
asymmetrical and 1/2 the eyes are
different and the facial expression is
different than the other and he's also
he's on portrayed on the top of the dome
and holding a book so the book is sacred
right so that's a great idea that the
book is sacred that's a great idea man
and the idea that the word is sacred but
then the picture also represents human
beings as creatures with one foot in
thee in them in the profane and one foot
in the sacred or one foot in the finite
and one foot in the infinite and I
actually think that that's
that's empirically true like we are
these weird creatures that are both
finite and infinite at the same time and
we have experiences of that even like
deep religious experiences psychedelic
experiences for that matter
um invoke that feeling of that invoke
the reality I would say of our
connection with the infinite now what
that infinite is so let's call that God
I mean the Christian idea is that that's
actually outside of time and space
itself which is quite a grand notion and
not the least bit unsophisticated by the
way it's a tremendously sophisticated
idea that something actually exists
outside the fabric of time and space
that transcends it that that's there at
the beginning and at the end that's an
unbelievably sophisticated idea and I
think that people can experience that
and do quite commonly which was why the
psychedelic revolution in the 60s was so
absolutely potent so these sorts of
things can't just be dismissed with some
rationalist sleight of hand and and and
some discussion of the idea that
Christianity judeo-christianity let's
say is some like primitive set of
wish-fulfillment superstitions or some
power game it's like you just have no
depth of scholarship whatsoever if
that's what your criticisms are and also
I I would say when will you you're asked
when you ask someone do you believe in
God you I ask myself if I say that I
don't believe in God if I if what what
in within me when I say what is
different within me when I say that I
don't believe in God compared to a
person that says that he does believe in
God I mean is if I feel sort of
irrational
I wake up or I take a glass of wine and
then suddenly I'm I'm overwhelmed with
love for humankind for my fellow man or
something like that so if I if I was a
person who will say that I believe in
God would that be something is it
something qualitatively different with
it between a person between me compared
to that person do you understand what
I'm saying no like I haven't quite got
that yet like what is the
perience of believing in God and how is
that quality qualitatively different
from a person who says that he doesn't
believe oh yes I see what you mean well
that is that is part of the question the
question is here well the when someone
says do you believe in God no there's
three parts to that question the first
question is who is the you to which they
are referring and that turns out to not
be a simple question I mean Nietzsche
did a very good job of taking apart the
idea of the I you know because he was
realist critiquing Descartes I think
therefore I am and and so the idea the
first question is well who is the you to
which you are referring the second is
what do you mean by belief the third is
what do you mean by God it's like you
can't just leap to the assumption that
the person asking the question and the
person answering the question have the
same views on those and I think that
that's that's part of the reason why I
don't like the question you know like I
said well I act as if I believe in God
and so I would say that's the more
that's the most fundamental
manifestation of faith but I could also
say I believe and don't believe in God
and you think well you can't you can't
think both of those things at the same
time it's like well yeah that's what you
think it's it's it's in when you're
asking something that complicated then
there's absolutely no reason to assume
that you can't have paradoxical
responses to it so you could you could
even say maybe that the injunction in
the Old Testament is something like you
should believe and not believe in God
because it's very complicated it's it's
not it's not by any means a simple
question I know I don't remember his
name though but I think perhaps it was a
Burkert or something like that like he
said that myth is about reconciling
contradictions within the human
condition yeah exactly that's exactly
well that's what a successful myth does
and part of the reason that these
ideologies that we'd be discussing like
feminism have so much power is because
they actually draw their motive for
from an underlying religious substrate
but they only tell half the story
that's what an idio Lachie is so when
the feminists say culture is the
tyrannical patriarchy it's like yeah
that's true
but it's also the benevolent wise king
so like while then they say why can't be
one and the other at the same time and
the answer is well it's a
multi-dimensional phenomena that you're
encapsulating within a single category
it can contain contradictions in fact it
does because society obviously
constrains and and and kills you even
like you die in to your neural
configuration is that when you're first
born you have more neural connections
than you will ever in your life and most
of them die and so so you die into your
four-year-old self and then between the
ages of 16 and 20 you die into your
adult self and so the idea that that the
society that you're in is a terrible
tyrant that shapes you by death is
exactly true but by the same token it's
also err almost everything that enables
you and enables you to function in the
world and so the critic critics of the
patriarchy say tyranny tyranny tyranny
it's like yeah yeah tyranny but not only
tyranny and they say evil man evil man
it's like yeah obviously but not only
evil man not only that and that's why a
genuine mythology would and I would put
Freudian psychoanalysis in that category
because Freud had a very balanced view
of the nature of being talks about both
parts of the paradox at the same time
you know it's the dragon and the gold
it's the terrible devouring mother and
the and the Virgin Mary
it's the tyrant and the wise King its
Christ and Satan it's all of those
paradoxes stacked on top of one another
and then the story about how you go
about dealing with that that's a true
religious myth yeah and it ideologies
just takes a part of that says this is
the whole I mean in early Christianity
there was a large battle between many
kists
and gnostics and what could turn out to
be the Catholic Church and the
mainstream Church and and they said that
the evil evil was like that the world we
live in is created by this other force
the Demiurge so that they had a very
split vision of good and evil but what
you're saying and what you're saying
about these ideologies is that basically
it's perhaps it's a new form of
theological battle between you know
sticks and and people that say that this
is we have both sides both that's a
perfectly reasonable way of looking at
it you know and like young tended
towards manake ISM to some degree
because he was so struck by say the
evils of Nazism and he he had a hard
time with the idea that evil was only
the absence of good but and I've thought
about that a lot because I'm a great
admirer of yogin you criticize anything
he said at your peril you know because
he was a great genius but I think that I
think the Manichaean view is wrong I
think that what evil is is the absence
of good and then it takes on its own
life I think it's I mean it's called
I've written about this in my new book
quite extensively because I have a book
coming out January called 12 rules for
life an antidote to chaos now I've been
trying to take those ideas apart and to
grapple with well with the fact that
human beings hate themselves because
they're vulnerable and malevolent which
which is original sin you know which is
something I'm a great believer in I
think it's an unbelievably sophisticated
way of looking at the world you know
that there's something that there was
something damaged in the fabric of being
itself I believe that to be the case I
think we experience that as human beings
and that our ethical obligation is to
rectify that and to determine how to
rectify that to overcome the
vulnerability and malevolence that like
the terror of vulnerability and the
subjection to malevolence that
characterizes our day-to-day existence
that's our that's our primary mode of
the proper being
in the world I that seems to me to be
correct so and again that's the sort of
thing that I've been trying to tell well
those who will listen let's say but it's
so far it's mostly being young men who
are dying for this message like they're
they're dying for it you know but he's
really God he's I go to these talks now
you know public talks and where I speak
about responsibility and truth and like
after the talks there are like
crowds of mostly young men who line up
and say you know I was nihilistic I was
desperate I was suicidal I was
malevolent and resentful and like going
bad places and I've started listening to
what you've been saying about myth and
it's like brought me out of that
horrible hole and that's just one person
after another says the same thing you
know it's so and I've had thousands of
letters like that and maybe tens of
thousands now I can't even begin to keep
up with them and well thank God for that
you know how do you feel I mean
personally when so many are turning to
you for for this counselor from guidance
well you don't I read this paper a long
time ago called relations between the
ego and the unconscious which is one of
use maybe it's his most stellar work and
and it's not a paper you can understand
unless you know what it's about and
because he talked about the danger of
ego inflation that's so so imagine that
you're dealing with archetypal ideas and
that you can fall prey to the temptation
to assume because you started to
understand the ideas and maybe
communicate about them that they are
somehow yours and then what happens is
that can produce a messianic inflation
and so that would characterize someone
like Hitler for example and that's it's
tantamount to a form of mental illness
because what happens is that you take on
the grandeur of the mythological ideas
and the archetypal ideas and the power
of those ideas as if they were your own
creations well that's a very bad idea
and so I read I read those that paper
after I had a dream where I was blown by
a wind into the top of a cathedral I was
in this chandelier in this huge
Cathedral mm-hmm like say 20 times
bigger than st. Peter's you could hardly
even see the walls and I was put up in
this
at the center of this Cathedral right
way above the ground and then I got down
some Howard because I didn't want to be
there and then the wind dissolved me and
blew me back there and I woke up and I
thought oh my god that's a that's a
crazy dream like a dream put me at the
center of the cross at the center of
being and I thought what the hell that's
what am I supposed to make of a dream
like that it's like it's it's delusional
let's say order zone delusional and it
was a very powerful dream like I can
still I can still see it and I read the
relations between the ego and the
unconscious at that time and started to
understand what was happening is that I
was starting to understand what these
archetypal ideas meant that the place of
the individual is actually at the
crucifix at the center of reality the
point of maximal suffering and the
acceptance of that that's all true but
it's not true of me hmm right
it's everybody is a center of the cosmos
and and and so you have to detach
yourself as carefully as you can from
the archetypal ideas themselves because
otherwise you end up identifying with
them personally or people identify you
with them and that that's that's the
ultimate what would you call it the
ultimate temptation of pride and so no
that's so I'm I try to be very careful
of that very cognizant of that and and
to keep a good eye on my yeah it's a you
it's like this you know when the
Emperor's in the Roman Empire when they
rode into trials they had a slave behind
them telling them a mental morning right
exactly exactly this job yes it's always
I really like that idea and I like the
idea of reminding yourself about death
to keep humble to keep yourself humble
it sounds a little well death in sin
you know because the other thing that
you have to and maybe this is the
advantage that the Catholics have over
the Protestants is that the Catholics at
least put their sins in front of them
constantly which is very analogous to
what you just described because it and
you know I try to be very very careful
about paying attention to all the things
that I'm doing wrong and I have people
my family and friends who are helping me
do that and and because it's a strange
to call it a strange situation to be and
is just barely scraping the surface yeah
I would like to ask you one at least one
more I mean I could ask you talk to you
for four hours but I know you you have a
busy man yeah I should let's do one more
question we can always talk again you
know so yeah but the church will Sweden
is our old state Church it is
contemplating replacing the gendered
nouns of their guide for church services
and they've already starting to replace
the Lord and he and him with God in a
lot of places yeah me language more
inclusive yeah
and yeah well the people who well the
people who are running the church have
absolutely no idea about what any of its
doctrines mean yeah it's as simple as
that
like I mean there is existence in
Christianity on the androgyny of Christ
and there are elements of God that have
been portrayed as feminine like Sophia
which is wisdom but you don't mess with
those things you don't rewrite them like
that not not without having your soul
tremble and quake at your
presumptuousness yeah and the idea that
you can just casually rewrite these
ancient texts it's like these people who
rewrite fairytales so that they're more
in keeping with modern sensibility it's
like they're so unbelievably
intellectually narcissistic that well
it's it's positively satanic in its in
its overreach and I mean that in the
most technical sense it's this it's the
satanic temptation of the untrammeled
unbound intellect it's exactly what
milton warned against in Paradise Lost
so it's a complete catastrophe all it
will do is speed the demolition of the
church so and I think that's what it's
aimed at actually because of course the
church is just too patriarchal construct
anyways and it's oppressive and it's
oppressed women forever despite his
assistant insistence that men and women
were both made in the image of God
Canada I think that's our church is
pretty much doomed we'll close to these
issues it's very it's more political
than a lot of politicians yes well
that's it it's it's that when the church
becomes political it's done yeah so I
mean I as I said I have I think I've
gotten the most out of this interview it
was really really informative and really
nice talking to you talking to you too
and you know maybe we can do this again
in January if you want to one of the
things I could do is send you a galley
copy of my book if you wanted to great
because I would really like to review it
and then we could perhaps make and I
could ask you a couple of follow-up
questions to your book or something like
yes yeah that'd be good because we could
get deeper into some of the issues that
we discussed yeah
okay so I'll publish this on Saturday
this interview all right and I'll send
you the recording okay yeah thank you
okay that's great thank you all right
you bet very nice to meet you nice to
meet you bye-bye my