When you returned to the Bulls after playing baseball there were some news guys on the
team, including Luc Longley. And I'm curious, what did you think about Luc at that stage?
I didn't really have any preconceived ideas. I mean, I knew he was on the team. I was anxious
to understand who my team-mates were. My mindset was to go, you know, try to get back and win.
You know, any time that you know, when I left in 93, I left on top in terms of winning.
I was coming back in 95 halfway in the season and still my mentality was about winning.
Now granted physically I wasn't prepared for winning at that time because I had a baseball
body, but ... it took me a while to understand my team-mates understand, you know, their
motivations. You had to understand that when I started with the Bulls, you know, it was
five thousand people in the stands, so, you know, it was like playing to an empty arena,
you know, and when these guys are coming in, the arena has been sold out for six years,
you know, so I wanted them to understand, you know, and Luc to understand as well as
Jud Buechler and Steve Kerr and all the guys that were new, where we transformed from so
that you can feel that energy and you can understand what it feels like playing in front
of the fans who for years were always believing that ahh we wait till next year, we wait till
next year. Well, we were the team that was on top now. I thought it was very important
for them to understand that that history and that dynamic about what what the Bulls actually
experienced and I experienced. So I felt compelled once I got to know those guys to kind of push
them to understand, OK, we're not in the bottom anymore, we're on top, and when you're on
top, everybody's coming at you. So you have to be prepared. You've got to be ready to
play.
And do you think Luc was ready. Did you think he had what it took to work with you to win
a championship again?
I didn't know. I think what would ... I think Luc can answer that a little bit better than
I can. I felt the need to push him. I know at that time they hadn't won. A lot of those
guys had never won in terms of the, you know, a world championship or something of that
magnitude. And so I knew it was going to take it takes some learning for them to understand
that. That's where my role became very vital to lead and to give them that, you know, that
that knowledge that they need along with Phil, obviously. Phil was, you know, the leader
but in terms of basketball leadership, when I say I led, I led based on, you know, physically,
you know, I get out there, first one there, last one to leave, work on my skill set, blah,
blah. You know, listen to what the coach, try to, you know, do whatever the coach is
asking. That was the leadership that I wanted everyone to see and then reinforce it with
my voice when I felt the necessary need to do so. So I felt that, you know, no, I don't
think Luc had the mentality of what it took to win, but I think he earned that over the
years that we played together. And obviously, you know, following our leadership - Phil,
myself, Scottie, you know, just so that he can understand what it would take and how
his skill set could fit.
So what sort of skills did he need to develop and was it skills or attitude or both?
I think it was both. You know, he had the skill set, you know, seven-footer, pick and
pop, shoot, rebound, block shots. Defensively understood exactly what to do, set great screens.
But the mindset of being able to do that every single night, do that against teams that were
more physical and teams that are less physical. It was the mindset that I felt like Luc had
to learn, and I think he did learn, you know, and we all had had to learn over the period
of our careers. And, you know, but when we were going against the teams like New York
Knicks, you know, Indiana Pacers, Miami Heat, you know, it's a certain mentality that those
teams are being coached at. We had to match that, if not surpass that. And I think that
was the growth of what Luc had to learn.
And Luc was the first Australian in the NBA, what did you think of his Australian-ness?
Laid-back. I never seen Luc mad, to be honest, and he is his personality, is that he you
know, every day, g'day, mate. You know, you feel that warmth coming from him and you know,
and that's good. You know, it's good to have that mentality and feel like, you know, you're
very fortunate each and every day. And you wake up, you enjoy your life. You know, you
live it by the moment. But there's times when you have to push yourself a little bit and
that, you know, you want to see that frustration. You want to see a little bit of anger. And
Luc did at times, you had to do a little pushing to get that. But his mentality is that, you
know, he just enjoys being around people. He is he is that gentle giant. You know, he's
always been big, you know, wherever he was growing up and being around. So it's quite
naturally he always wants to feel welcome and wanted to, you know, connect with someone,
you know, maybe a smaller person or, you know, anybody. That's a great trait to have. Also,
that trait has to be adjusted, especially when you're in competition, you know, because
you want that dominance to be shown. You want that intimidation to be shown in competition.
It's not a negative thing. It's always a positive thing in terms of, you know, how you utilise
it. But, you know, it took a while for him to get to that.
So he had to toughen up?
You had to show him a little tough love, you know, that's what I call it, tough love and,
you know, great. I loved him as a team-mate. You know, I think that, you know, any day
that I felt frustrated and angered, I can look at Luc and know that, you know what?
It's not that hard, it's not that, you know, this is not, you know, life or death, you
know, he simplifies things and his his whole mentality is to do that. And that's his personality.
And it's good to have people around that can do that. You know, when you have people like
myself who are somewhat aggressive, you know, we live in every moment, you know, we want
to dominate every little moment and we forget about how simple life is, how simple the moment
may be. This is where he was a great, you know, a great team-mate and helped me mature
as a person.
A balance to your intensity sometimes?
You're absolutely right, absolutely right.
OK, so what did you think were Luc's strengths and what did you think Luc's weaknesses were?
His strength was he could shoot, you know, he was very smart, good passer. Physically,
you know, he uses his body very well in terms to rebound and position. His weakness was
I would say, you know, making sure that mentality-wise to be aggressive, you know, you know, have
that killer instinct, you know, in that, you know, you want to dominate, you know, and
there's times where I had to push him on that, you know, and, you know, and he received it
well, I mean, you know, it wasn't as if, you know, it was a constant resistance or I felt
it necessary the need the necessary need to do it every time we played. No, it was you
know, it was a process that, you know, when you win and you learn, you apply that over
a period of time. And with Luc, he did. But his strong points, his athleticism, he didn't
have the athleticism as most bigs, but he had the smarts. You know, he he knew how to
position himself well. He knew he he knew how to play against someone like a Patrick
Ewing, who he knew was far more gifted athletically. But he was able to utilise his strength, which
is shooting on the perimeter post up using his left, his right hand, his physicality
to, you know, to at least make himself known, you know, and it was up to us to complement
him, you know, make him as important as a Patrick Ewing in situations where he could
dominate or he can actually, you know, lead us. And we did that. You know, I think Phil
did a good job in trying to gauge Luc's motivation that per game. Let's just say we started the
game and obviously our focus is to go inside and we were going to Luc early and Luc knew
that and if Luc felt compelled that or he felt like he was into the game, he can give
us that, you know you know, that that lift that we needed from that inside play. If not,
then, you know, we would have to go the other, you know, other routes to try to assert ourself
as a team.
Were there times that you were aware that Luc was finding some of your criticisms quite
tough.
Yeah, I felt that I mean, and you know that, look, I think it was a lot of situations where
people were somewhat critical in terms of the way that I perceived it. And, you know,
but I had a mission, you know, I wanted them to understand what it took to win, you know,
and winning has a price. And the thing is, is that, you know, I wanted to make sure they
were prepared for the worst, you know, especially in competition. And, you know, they're I'm
pretty sure there were times they were not happy with me. I think if you look back now,
I'm pretty sure they are, you know, based on how we achieved and with the successes
that we, you know, we were able to to overcome. And but, you know, as a leader, you know,
you sometimes you don't you're not going to be well liked. You're not going to be, you
know, but you have to pull them along, you know, because, you know, you've experienced
it, you understood it. The other side of that road is success. And I think, you know, the
gratification would be there once we get over that hill. And I felt that and I can sense
some of that coming from from my team-mates. But, you know, the thing is, is that we for
us to be successful, someone had to do that, you know, especially from a leadership world.
Did you sometimes wish that you didn't have to be like that?
Yes. Yes, only because I felt like, you know, everybody, you would you would assume that
everybody had the same mentality that I had and that every day, you're the first one in
the gym last when they leave, you know, you live within the moment. You know, you strive
to be strive for perfection each and every time you step on the basketball court. But
unfortunately, everybody don't have that same mentality. And if they did, then makes my
job so much easier. It's like looking at, you know, a mirror of 11 or 12 people, you
know, and unfortunately, the world is not made that way. And, you know, sometimes you
have to push, pull or do whatever you need to to get over that hill, you know, and the
gratification is always going to be in the work and once the work is done and you can
see where the achievement has has been met, you know. So, yeah, I wish, you know, I could
have, you know, laid back and enjoyed it as much as everybody else. But that not that
didn't guarantee us success. You know. That didn't say we're going to win, you know. You
know, so I had to do what I had to do.
Over the years that you played together, did your opinion of Luc change? Did you enjoy
playing together by the end of those years and come to value what he gave to the team?
I did. I valued it and I also understood how to get it, get it out of him. You know, how
to challenge him, you know, as a team-mate, you know, and the thing is and I think Luc
understood, you know, he understood that, you know, if he if he mixed, he missed that
box out then he's going to hear, you know, obviously some verbal, you know, words coming
from me, from, you know. The expectations were so totally different. Once he proved
that he could do it, the task is to do it every single night, you know, that's the thing,
you know, and that's why I felt like I knew you was capable. We all felt he was capable.
But you have to be capable every single night for us to maintain success. So I pushed him.
Obviously, I did. And verbally, you know, I would challenge him in certain situations
where I felt like you know, Luc, you just you're not you're not doing what we expect
you to do, you know? And I would welcome that to for my, you know, if they see that I was
doing something that they pretty much expected and I was taking shortcuts, which wasn't too
often, I'm pretty sure that I was open. You know, Phil would criticise me, you know, other
team-mates would criticise me. And, you know, the purpose of improving and the purpose of
being a good team-mate and the purpose of being a good team is we all had to look in
the mirror and understand, OK, what can I do better to make this team better? You know,
and we also have to be willing to accept constructive criticism. Nothing personally, you know, we
hung out. We have fun. You know, we would joke around, you know, it's nothing personal.
But in competition, when you're trying to, you know, exceed and be successful, we have
to hold each other accountable. That's what team-mates do. And and it's nothing really
personal about it.
Luc admits that consistency was his big issue, and he that he struggled with it and you struggled
with the fact that he wasn't consistent enough.
Yeah, it was times like that. And I give you a good example. He may not like this story
in 98 we're playing the Utah Jazz. Did he ever tell you this? Did he tell you this story?
What story is this going to be?
Utah Jazz, Scottie Pippen was out, you know, and we knew we just played Utah in the finals
the year before. So every game we play against Utah is a message. You want to send a message.
So he is ... I go to Luc at the beginning of the game, I say, look Luc, we have to we
got you have to establish yourself inside. You have to dominate. We're going to come
to you early. You're going to really got to set the tone for us because we don't have
Scottie. It's me and Dennis and you. So he understood that. He knew the importance of
that. The first quarter ends, Luc has 12 points, four blocks and four rebounds. And I go to
Luc, that's how you fucking play, man. You do that. We dominate. We up by 16, we're up
at 16. We're killing them in their building. At the end of the game. Luc had 12 points,
four rebounds and four blocks. It's like he sufficed the anticipation or what we want
him to do in the first quarter, but he forgot there's three other quarters. We're winning
by 16. We lose by 15. So now my frustration is like, you know, it's boiling and I'm and
I go into the locker room and I'm sitting down, I'm just trying to figure out how do
we lose this game? We seem like we had a good rhythm the first quarter, blah, blah, blah.
And and Luc's sitting across from me. And once again, Luc has this demeanour that, you
know, he doesn't really show ... like I'm like I'm I'm like boiling over here, but I'm
really trying to hold it in because it's just one game. But I understood the significance
of the game because we're playing against Utah. You want to make sure that we send a
message. And Luc says, it's OK, mate. It's OK. And the way that he said it made it seem
like he didn't really receive it the way that I was receiving it, and I just chuckled then
and, you know, and I just looked at Luc and I said, you know what Luc? That is the last
time I'm going to give you a compliment in the middle of the game, because you don't
receive compliments well, in the sense that you feel like you just you stop and you don't
really pursue. And I said it, you know, from, you know, chuckling because I was really frustrated
as opposed to yelling. I want him to understand. Look, man, you don't have to just, you know,
you have to keep playing. You don't play just for one quarter, just so that now I can look
at you and say you're doing a great job, blah, blah, blah. And I own I get it. But we still
have to play the other three, three quarters of the game. And it told me more about Luc
in a sense that. You know, You've got to keep pushing him. You've got to keep pushing. You
got to keep pushing. You can't let them get comfortable because you get too comfortable.
Then he relaxes, you know, and we need him to keep being aggressive, you know? And from
that point on, I didn't do it in a way. I don't think I did it in a way to to point,
point or jab, jab or punch, punch. It was almost like, OK, I got I got to keep encouraging
him. I got to keep encourage him even when he's doing well. I'm going to keep encouraging
because he needs that, you know, that reinforcement. You know, that was the thing I learnt about
Luc. And once I learnt that, then I understood how our relationship was going to be established.
And, you know, a hug is probably more than a yell. You know, you know, a you know, a
pat on the back is probably more than a punch, you know, that type of thing. And, you know,
once I was able to understand that as a leader, then we can always have a certain dialogue.
OK, mate, you know, I can I can, you know, go back and forth with you. But also, I know
how to get you to this point that we need you to be consistent. Phil was good at it.
I learnt it from Phil. Phil understood that with Dennis. He understood that with me. He
understood that with Scottie, Tony, Steve, all of. And that was a strong point about
who Phil Jackson was. I had to learn that through him, you know, and then when I got
back, obviously, I had different personalities that I hadn't been with. So I had to understand
who these people were so that I could have a relationship, you know, the Steve Kerr and
the punch and you know, Tony Kucoc from the 92, you know, dream team, blah, blah, blah.
Once we understood how those dynamics work, the communication aspect was much simpler.
So you obviously taught Luc a lot. Did Luc teach you anything?
Yes.
You mentioned to me a little bit then that you realised that you had to kind of meet
the person where they were at.
Yes.
Was there anything else that Luc taught you?
No, I think. I mean, his his calm demeanour and his acceptance for all different types
of people is an unbelievable trait, you know, and I was able to learn and watch and analyse
how he built his relationship, you know, coexist in his personalities and his friends and things
of that nature that, OK, I could take bits and pieces of that. Now, could I change my
approach? No I can't, you know, but at least I could have a better understanding for how
other people are thinking so it can alter my thought process and how I would adapt to
certain people. So, yeah, I learnt things from Luc, I learn things from other players,
but my personality is always going to be dominant no matter what, but at least it was a a consideration
to understand and appreciate who I'm playing with and what gets them to tick. And how do
you relate and have a relationship with them. I mean those are things that I had to make
adjustments to.
So you won two three-peats, which is just beyond incredible. How hard was that second
three-peat to you? Just sort of summarise all of that up for me?
Uh, well, it was harder than the first three peat, mainly because I think, you know, any
time you continually repeat things is harder from a mentality standpoint to create that
hunger as if you never won or, you know, you just winning for the first time. The first
three peat was a team that was together for a long period of time, you know, pretty much
eight, nine years. You know, we were together. Second three peat was a patchwork. You know,
we got players from different places, you know, and I wasn't there most of the time
when they got there. You know, the first time I was there, I was the, you know, the existing
parts from the previous year. And then we just kept plugging and plugging and plugging
it in. And everybody, you know, saw the mentality. Everybody adjusted to the mentality. With
the second three peat was I bought my mentality to a team that was already existing. So now
I had to apply that. And it was much more difficult to do that, you know, in the second
three peat than the first and, you know, not that it ... You know, obviously it worked,
but it put a lot of, you know, mentally and physically, you know, straining, you know,
situations, you know, with team-mates, you know, and understanding, you know, the the
mentality that it took to win. And we got there and we appreciate it. And, you know,
the 96 was probably the toughest one because I was coming from a defeat in 95 when I played
baseball. Everyone thought I was a step slower. You know, so I had to prove myself, you know,
and my father, you know, the first time I actually done it without my father. So, I
mean, all these emotions and all these different things are coming at me. And, you know, to
me, that was the most difficult if I had to pick of the six. And then once we were able
to understand, OK, this is Michael Jordan, he's he's going to be aggressive. This is
Luc, he's going to be somewhat passive, but you got to pull him along. Steve Kerr, you
got to give him encourage. Dennis. You got to pull him in every now and then he's going
to be Dennis. Scottie's going to be Scottie. You know, once we understood how the players
were on that team, it clicked, you know, and no wonder we won 72 games, you know, the following
year. And then, you know, we was able to to maintain, you know, what we did pretty much
in the second three peat. But it took a process, so it was much harder.
Now look, The Last Dance was absolutely huge in Australia. Everyone loved it. But Australian
viewers also wondered why Luc wasn't involved and Luc wasn't interviewed. What's your take
on that, Michael?
Yeah, you can say that a lot. And the thing is, I had no control in terms of who you who
you were going to interview. It was a lot of guys who said the same thing. And Jason
could answer that much better than I because it was more their control, you know, and once
again, he was and is an integral part to this whole process. And I think that, you know,
we if you look back and say, well, we we shoulda included Luc, we should have included, you
know, other players that were significant to the team. And it's hard, you know, but,
you know, I had no control over that and I you know unfortunate and I can understand
why Australia would say, well, why wouldn't we include Luc and we probably should have.
And and that was I guess if you look back and say if I could change anything, that's
probably what I could have changed, where you would want to interview every single body
and get a perspective from a lot of different angles.
Now, your desire to win and your toughness on the team as a result of that is absolutely
legendary and was explored in The Last Dance. Luc describes your leadership style as carnivorous.
What do you think about that?
Yeah, I mean, I can see that from his perspective quite naturally, yes, I can see that. And
look, I don't go in there with that mentality. That's how it's gonna ... It's just so so,
you know, my mentality was to win at all cost, you know, and and pull, push, yank, whatever
to get everybody on the same page. And, you know ... I understand it, I understand it,
and, you know, the thing is, is that. If I were to change my personality back, you know,
to to something totally different. I wouldn't be who I would have been. I don't think we
had the same successes. I think a lot of players probably wouldn't have been the same in terms
of their perspective, you know. So, yeah, I can see him saying that. But the thing is,
is that I think it was needed in some respect. And and I think our success illustrates that.
One of the themes of this story in Luc's life, it's sort of charting Luc's life, is the fact
that he did have to change. He was a gentle giant. He got to the NBA, he had to kind of
put on the armour and toughen up. And then he found when his NBA career was over, he
found it very difficult to shed that sort of tough armour that he had to sort of gird
himself with. He quite struggled with that for quite a long time. Can you relate to that?
One hundred and ten per cent. Uh, part of my struggles after the game is my competitive
drive. You know, I was such a competitive player and each and every day felt the need
to always get ahead of my opponent. Well, when you're out of sports and you're in, you
know, in normal life, you know. You don't shed that armour that you actually have coated
yourself with, you know, based on your lifestyle and work ethic, you know, it's just you have
to find your way around it. And that's frustrating. And sometimes it's even tough, you know. Because
of the competitive nature that I have I look at everything from a competitive nature, you
know, and I tell my wife all the time is that I'm cursed. I'm curse from a competitive standpoint
that, you know, I cannot watch or compete or be a part of things without competition,
you know, and that's something that, you know, I live with today but I would not want to
live without, you know, because I think it said so much about me and helped me define
who I really was or am and attained all the things I really wanted. Now is the challenge
is to calm those nerves. You know, that's why I do a lot more fishing now. I would have
never thought I would get on a boat and go fishing. But the competition of patience and
being, you know, trying to catch a fish, trying to be patient. It's not going to happen. You
can't make it happen. You just got to be ready when it does happen. Those are all things
that I think calms me down a lot more than if I'm playing any sport, if I'm playing golf
or if I'm doing anything competitive, because I think that, you know, that's what I need.
That's the therapy that I need to help soothe some of these competitive juices that I have.
Well, that's interesting because Luc loves fishing too. Loves boats and fishing. When
you look back on those year's, was it sad to say goodbye to your team-mates like Luc
once the sort of Chicago Bulls and that team were no more.
Yes. And it's still sad, I mean, look, Luc emails me all the time. And every time I see,
you know, G'day mate, it brings a smile to my face in a sense that, you know, we don't
spend the type of time we used to, even though, you know, if you ask him or you ask me, I
think it was genuine time. You know, even though we were competing and we were learning
about each other and we were pushing each other, blah, blah, blah, those are still genuine
times, you know, and you don't share those with too many people, you know. So, yeah,
I miss I miss spending time with him. You know, I miss seeing, you know, that face.
That's never going to be sad no matter what happens, you know. You know, he's just he's
just funny. I think the thing that was in amazement of every time I spend and see Luc,
it was a shock to see someone he was looking at me and I could feel this coming from him
and say, how can one person be so competitive each and every day and blah, blah, blah? And
yet he doesn't seem like he's enjoying life when that's when in actuality I was. I was
enjoying the competition. That was who ... that was my enjoyment. I sensed that sometimes
when he used to look at me, you know, and just kind of, you know, and I didn't take
it negatively, I took it as as a badge of honour. I take my job seriously. I take my
competitive nature very seriously. But sometimes looking at him and seeing and joking and,
you know, we ... sense of humour and, you know. It's funny, You miss that. You know,
you miss that, you know, that celebration of, you know, starting a goal at the beginning
of the year and then at the end of the year, you you know, the gratification that we we
went through hell to get here, but we got here and let's just enjoy it. Let's have fun
and let's do it again in another three months. You know, that was the mentality. You missed
that in 98.
And you're a busy man, Michael. Why did you agree to take time out of your schedule for
Luc, to do this interview for Luc?
He matters to me. Yeah, you know, he does matter to me and his story needs to be told.
And I'm pretty sure I can enlighten it from my perspective and, you know, and give him
... give people his meaning fullness to me, you know, as a team-mate as a competitor.
Sure. I mean, there's and some good and some bad, but that's all a part of life. You know,
you're going to have friends that you have good and bad things about, you know. But we
went through the trenches. We we we shared a lot, you know, we competed together. And,
you know, I would take him any day of the week, you know, if I had to go to a competition
again, If you asked me to do it all over again is no way I would leave Luc Longley off my
team. No way possible. Because he mattered. You know, he had an impact on me. He helped
me change as a person. So, I mean. To hear that they're they're recognising him and you
would think, you would think, most people think, what can they be saying about Luc in
a documentary? You can be saying a lot about the guy. And I'm I'm a I am a, you know, an
example of what he meant to me and how he made me better as a player, you know, as a
person, you know, and that story needs to be told about a person that people think it's
very, you know, very minor. But they're not. They're very major when it comes to winning
a championship. Those people do matter.
Well that's lovely and at the end of the day Luc credits you with compensating for his
weaknesses with your brilliance and dragging him across the line three times. So thank
you very much.
No problem. It was my pleasure. And once again, you know, they are motivating to me. You know,
they were, you know, for me to ultimately get them where they needed to go. And ultimately
we got where we needed to go. I mean, it was teamwork. It wasn't a one man. It was teamwork.
They made me better as well.