The press. Politicians and the public are struggling to untangle
a knot of questions New and old following the unprecedented FBI search
of a former presidents home earlier this week, which leads us to
the analysis of Brooks and K part, That's New York Times columnist
David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington
Post. Hello to both of you. It's Friday night. Good to have you with
us again, and there's one story that's dominating the news today,
Jonathan
I'm going to start with you. Um I hardly know where to begin. But
what do you make of this? I mean, the FBI carted off 11 boxes. We're
learning of various degrees of confidential material this week.
My head is still spinning. Um and not just any material. Some of
the material we now know from the released warrant have to have either
classified markings, top secret markings or sensitive compartmented
information. Um, which is probably the highest level of security
intelligence documents. There are you can only read those in secure
locations and they're not meant to be taken out of those security.
Locations that I did, Julie, I'm trying to look at this.
Not from a partisan lens, not from my particular perspective as someone
you know, center and left. But as just an American taking out the
name of the person involved, we have just seen a former president
of the United States subpoenaed, um, in June for for documents.
Ignored the subpoena. The FBI gets a search warrant based on three
aspects of the espionage act. They wait three days to execute it.
They execute that search warrant against the former president of
the United States, and now we're learning that it was some of the
most sensitive information. Um, a government official can have access
to he had with him more than a year after being out of
Office.
At his at his private residence. What should we make of normal? I'm
sorry. I thought you were stopping. Go ahead, Jonathan. I'm just
gonna say under normal circumstances, everything should be on fire
because we should not be in this situation. No president has done
this. No president should do this, but Donald Trump did.
When I first heard about it, I have to confess. My stomach sank and
my reaction was to safety. I understand the political firestorm they're
about to set off as the days have gone by the gravity of what the
FBI did and their justification for what they did have grown. And
so first we learned this was not a rash thing that has been months
in the making. They did issue a subpoena. They walked through this
step by step.
And then even the last few hours. We've learned that, as Jonathan
said, if these documents are top secret documents that people who
know more about this than I that, um they say, that's a really big
deal.
And one of the acts the president is being investigated for is the
espionage Act. This is a serious act, which you know, could be a
decade in prison for a normal human being. And there are other expert
the potential falsification and mutilation of documents. That's also
years in prison. And so these are these are not small crimes. These
are major major criminal if they get to it, accusations, And if you
have that kind of crime, and you're alone force mint Officer you
know you gotta do.
Something, Jonathan. How much of this depends on what
Actually wars in those documents. How secret how confidential how
explosive. That material was
Well, I think that sort of great Asian depends on what potential
charges could could come down the road. But we're still talking about
documents that should never have left. The White House should be
in the possession of the National Archives because they are the official
custodian of presidential records. There are laws to ensure that
those records go to the National Archives.
No president. No former president should have the documents that
Donald Trump had before the before the FBI took them out. So ah out
of Mara Lago, So that's what we should be focused on that to my mind.
Yes, it matters. What's in the documents? What's even more important
is that he took them, um, against the against statutes.
Once he left the White House, I cannot express how serious this situation
is that the country finds itself in right now, David, you started
a minute ago by saying Initially you had this sinking feeling that
this could lead to sympathy, greater support.
For former President Trump. How much is that? Still
Something that's a That's a concern. I I do think this is both things
are true. The FBI was probably right to do what they did. This will
help Donald Trump.
And it's helps Donald Trump in a number of ways first as a number
of his potential primary opponents, consultants have been saying
off the record on in the media. Their campaigns are now have the
air taken out of this out of their sails. A couple of months ago,
a couple months ago, half of all Republicans were saying they want
to move on.
Now in the last week, at least and maybe short term last week, the
whole party is rallying around Donald Trump. 80% of Republicans say
they're more motivated to vote in 2022 because of what they call
this raid. Vast majority are saying
This is not an impartial investigation. This is a political hack
job. Something like 75%. Half of all Americans believe that
And so you get this situation where Trump people are rallying around
Trump. His opponents now have little to run on because everyone's
defending the guy who's been attacked. And then here's where I get
to the nightmare scenario. What happens if in my couple of years
year or two from now? Donald Trump is cruising to the Republican
nomination because he's winning primary after primary
And he gets convicted of something.
What happens if a year and a half from now the American public decides
he's gonna be elected president and the American legal system decides?
Oh, no, he's going to prison.
What happens then to our country because I assume he has to be arrested
and I assume half of country is just going to erupt in rage and,
frankly, political violence. So this is the presupposition for all
this. We live in a society where there is incredibly low social trust,
so people don't trust the institutions.
And be
In a normal party. Your candidacy is hurt. If you're investigated
by the FBI, that is not the current Republican Party right now, at
least right now, and so the this is you can see down the road to
a potential or a legal system in our political system Crash.
And society is really disrupted and and Jonathan it, you know, it's
not even having a charge leveled against the former president. Just
this week, this man went after the FBI in Cincinnati. He was later
killed. He was somebody involved in January six. He's a very, very
strong trump believer. I mean, so I mean, how much do you think the
former president has helped by this politically? Is David is saying
And how worried are you about it leading to something?
Else.
Oh, Donald Trump is absolutely helped by this. The people who believe
in Donald Donald Trump and love Donald Trump will believe everything
that he says and believe that anything that is done quote unquote
against him is persecuting him and therefore persecuting them. I
do not think that fear of
Potential violence or fear of whatever political benefit could come
to Donald Trump should should factor into the wheels of justice turning
he cannot.
Be allowed.
To be above the law. And if the Justice Department or the wheels
of justice were to cower in the face of the potential of benefiting
him, then our democracy is lost. He must be held accountable, just
like anyone else.
Uh, um, Potentially accused or investigated, tried for or found guilty
of the things that we're talking about Right now, Just because he
was sitting president of former president of the United States does
not mean he's above the law. And if let's say that crash happens
that David is talking about, um and he's he's elected, but he's convicted.
Well, he won't be president of the United States. I just, uh
Judy David. I am so I am so concerned about where we are right now,
because we are in uncharted territory. We don't know what the charges
are going to be, what the what the real impact is going to be. I
do agree with David, however, that anything that happens negative
from Trump and Trump supporters perspective is going to lead to
Things that I don't think we're prepared for, But we must get prepared
for it because our democracy is on the line. David should any of
this worry about what this could lead to affect the judicial process
in any way? Yeah, I absolutely think it should. We're all responsible
for the consequences of our actions, and prosecutors and investigators
use discretion every single day.
And so they if they're indicting candidate for a major party.
A. My own personal opinion is the bar should be pretty high.
That they really a It's a very serious crime and B. It's a very crystal
clear case that the whole country can can see.
That doesn't mean you don't you know, And as the experts of even
the last few hours I've talked about what Donald Trump may have done
with these documents probably clears the bar.
January, 6th
became more to think it clears the bar. But you just can't ignore
the society around. You can't ignore a society that is in perilously
close.
Danger of rupturing. And does that determine what you do? Do you
let somebody get away with a major crime? Obviously not. But you
can and none of us can be blind to the consequences of our actions.
And I think prosecutors are comfortable with that. What about that,
Jonathan?
I don't disagree. I don't disagree with David. I do think that the
facts as we know them now, in terms of that FBI search that that
high bar was there and that the Justice Department cleared those
bars and and then some, because they understand the consequences
of what they're going to do, and and and and the public. The public
reaction, knowing that the subpoena was issued in June and ignored
that they got the search warrant three days
Before it was it was executed. That to me, says that the Justice
Department and those people are exercising extreme caution.
And care.
Just a little bit of time left. But I do want to ask you both about
more election results this week. David. It's the election deniers
who are doing well. And so many of these primary contests and and
in race after race, they seem to be the folks Donald Trump is endorsed.
It's a in some weeks we've had a mixed bag that some non trump people
did well, but pretty much in the recent ones. Arizona, Wisconsin
elsewhere
Trump people, more or less swept the field. The election. I can't
remember his day before or after the house, right? I can't remember
if it was affected by it, but they had a very good and then progressives
did pretty well. And so I would say the overall story from all these
primaries so far is increased polarization.
Jonathan less than a minute there. What is this setup November to
look like, Um, a wild November Judy. But the thing that I'm looking
at is, you know, we now have five Republican gubernatorial candidates
across the country who are election deniers. Arizona, Wisconsin,
Michigan, Illinois, Maryland and Pennsylvania. Any one of them if
they actually become governor of that their particular state, the
2024 presidential election is in deep trouble.
Well on this light note that we're ending on on this Friday night
Sober. We can follow other Jonathan Cape part. David Brooks. Thank