In their latest book, Surviving Autocracy, Masha Gessen reminded us that Trump didn’t
run to be president; he ran to be an autocrat. I took a break from panic whittling to ask
Masha how close Trump might actually be to attaining complete unchecked power.
Journalist, author, and Russian dissident Masha Gessen has joined us several times on
the show, offering grim predictions about how Trump will ruin the country. And so far,
they’ve all come true—except this one from 2016:
- My biggest worry is a nuclear holocaust. Masha’s attitude now?
- Oh, there’s still definitely time for that.
Okay! That’s the Masha we know and love! So, in the midst of the pandemic and protests
and economic crisis, and in celebration of Masha’s new book, I had a Zoom chat with
our favorite fatalist—appropriately enough, during a thunderstorm that changed the lighting
from this, to this, to this—for our new segment, Doomcast with Masha Gessen! On a
scale of “things are completely hopeless” to “no seriously it’s so f— hopeless,
it’s like hopeless to even measure the hopelessness,” how hopeless are things right now?
- Right now, I’m actually thinking that I’m feeling very hopeful.
Wow! Let’s try this again! It’s all Going to Be Totally Fine with Masha Gessen!
- No, I’m not saying that. Um, no, we have infinite opportunity to f— up.
So, hope, maybe? - Well, hope where you can get it, first of
all. Hope where you can get it. Good enough! It’s
We Have Infinite Opportunity to F— Up, but Hope Where You Can Get It with Masha Gessen!
What is the source of this, dare I say, this uncharacteristic hope? Is it the murder hornets?
Be honest. - I mean, it took the uprising. We are seeing
a well-organized, well-thought-out, inspired and inspirational movement of people who actually
have a vision for the future. The biggest protest movement in this country’s history.
That’s right! Some estimates from last month showed that 26 million people had already
participated in Black Lives Matter protests! And that’s not even including all the military
cosplay enthusiasts. You have always said that we can’t rely on institutions to save
us. We have to rely on us. Is this us saving us? Minus the Karens? Is it happening?
- I think we’re trying to. And we are seeing ideas that would have, under normal circumstances,
under circumstances of political stability, taken years to penetrate the public consciousness.
Yes! Ideas such as universal basic income and health care, totally reforming the justice
system, and that the Confederates might have been assholes. They were assholes.
- All of those ideas are suddenly a part of the mainstream political conversation. And
largely, it’s up to the Democratic party to get its act together and realize that this
is its mandate. Ah, yes. Speaking of infinite opportunities
to f— it up: the Democrats. Meanwhile, Trump has decided that the problem with the rancid
swill of racist authoritarianism he’s been spewing is that the servings are too small.
But there are signs that delicacy isn’t packing them in like it once did. Let’s
talk about things that shouldn’t be hypotheticals but are. Crazy fantasies. That we actually
will have an election in November, number one. Number two, that Trump loses. But what
if he doesn’t actually... What if he also loses, but doesn’t actually leave?
- There are countries in the world where presidents lose elections and then refuse to leave. And
so, in those countries, we ask, whose side is the military on? Are they going to escort
him out of office? And then we ask, well, who is legitimate? Like, what is the perceived
legitimacy? And the perceived legitimacy depends on the vote count.
Right. - If he loses by the same margin as he won
by in 2016, he’s not going anywhere. So he needs to be defeated...
- By a landslide. Oh, god. But with a drop in voter registration
because of the pandemic, voter suppression, and other dirty tricks, everything seems increasingly
dark to me. And then... - I’m going to turn on this light here.
Okay. That was a little on the nose. But I’ll take it.
- Maybe try framing it a little bit differently. We have this amazing chance.
Yes, okay. - To just, vote the motherf— out of office.
It is still possible. It’s almost miraculous. You know, other people who are living in autocracies
have no hope of being able to use their voice, and their vote to change their lives fundamentally.
And we still have that option. Literally, if enough of us show up at the polls or mail
in our ballots, we’re going to get rid of him. And we’re going to get a chance at
re-inventing this country. This is what hope feels like! Masha, you did
it! So on that note, let’s end this edition of what we have always called We Have an Amazing
Chance to Vote the Motherf— Out of Office and Reinvent This Country with Masha Gessen!
- We’d better not f— it up.