I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT OUR NEXT GUEST WHO IS THE BEST SELLING
AUTHOR OF "FOOD RULES" AND "THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA."
PLEASE WELCOME, MICHAEL POLLAN!
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) ( BAND PLAYING )
>> Stephen: WELL, NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> GOOD TO BE BACK.
>> Stephen: YOU KNOW I'M A BIG FAN OF YOUR BOOKS, BOTANY
DESIRE, "THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA," "FOOD RULES," "COOKS"
AND OTHERS, BUT YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK CALLED "HOW TO CHANGE YOUR
MIND."
YOU'RE A LEGENDARY FOOD WRITER, BUT YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT PUTTING
FOOD INTO YOUR HO MOUTH WITH THI ONE, YOU TALK ABOUT PUTTING
PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS IN YOUR MOUTH.
WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO WRITE ABOUT TRIPPING BALLS?
( LAUGHTER ) AND WHAT'S THE TAKEAWAY?
>> YEAH, THIS IS NOT A BOOK ABOUT FOOD.
MUSHROOMS, I GUESS, ARE THE LINK BETWEEN MY PREVIOUS WORK AND MY
CURRENT WORK.
>> Stephen: YEAH.
BUT I WAS HEARING ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLE RESEARCH USING
PSYCHEDELICS LIKE LSD TO HELP PEOPLE WITH THEIR MENTAL HEALTH
PROBLEMS, WITH THEIR ADDICTIONS, AND I DID A PIECE FOR THE "NEW
YORKER" A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO INTERVIEWING PEOPLE WHO HAD
CANCER DIAGNOSES, AND THEY HAD BEEN MINISTERED SILISIBIN TO
HELP THEM CONFRONT THEIR MORTALITY AND THIS SEEMS LIKE A
BIZARRE IDEA.
>> Stephen: ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE WHO KNOWS WHERE THE MIND
GOES WHEN YOU'RE ON A PSYCHOACTIVE DRUG.
>> YEAH, BUT PEOPLE EMERGED FROM THIS EXPERIENCE, THEY WOULD HAVE
THESE POWERFUL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES AND THEY WOULD
EMERGE FROM IT WITH THEIR FEAR OF DEATH GONE.
I BECAME VERY CURIOUS TO SEE HOW CAN A MOLECULE DO THAT TO
ANYBODY AND THAT LAUNCHED ME ON THIS.
>> Stephen: DID YOU RESEARCH THE VARIOUS --
( LAUGHTER ) I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO ASK
IS ARE YOU HIGH RIGHT NOW?
( LAUGHTER ) >> I'M NOT.
>> Stephen: OKAY.
WHAT DID YOU DO IN SERVICE OF THIS PROJECT?
>> WELL, MY BRAND IS EMERGING JOURNALISM.
WHEN I WROTE ABOUT THE CAT INDUSTRY, I BOUGHT A STEER.
SO, NATURALLY, IF I'M WRITING ABOUT SILISIBIN, I HAD TO
IMMERSE MYSELF IN THAT EXPERIENCE.
>> Stephen: YOU TOOK MAGIC MUSHROOMS.
>> I TOOK L.S.D., MAGIC MUSHROOMS, IWASKA, AND THE
SMOKED VINUM OF THE SONORAN DESERT TOAD.
FIGURE THAT OUT.
>> Stephen: PROBABLY A THOUSAND YEARS AGO SOMEONE
LIQUID A TOAD AND SAID COME LICK MY TOAD.
( LAUGHTER ) BREAK IT DOWN WHAT THESE
EXPERIENCES DID FOR YOU.
>> THEY WERE REALLY INTERESTING.
I HAD VERY LITTLE PSYCHONAUT EXPERIENCE.
>> Stephen: I LOVE A NEW WORD.
O THIS WAS VERY NEW TO ME AND I WAS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT IT,
BUT IN THE END I HAD SOME REALLY INTERESTING TRANSFORMATIVE
EXPERIENCES.
THE MOST MEMORABLE FOR ME WAS A GUIDED TRIP ON SILISIBIN.
I SHOULD EXPLAIN HOW THIS WORKS.
THIS ISN'T JUST LIKE YOU MAY HAVE DONE IN HIGH SCHOOL OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
NO, NO ONE YOU KNOW.
THIS ISN'T JUST TAKING THIS AND GOING TO A CONCERT.
YOU'RE WORKING WITH A THERAPIST OR A GUIDE WHO PREPARES YOU FOR
THE EXPERIENCE, TELLS YOU WHAT TO EXPECT, WHAT TO DO IF YOU GET
INTO TROUBLE, IF YOU SEE MONSTERS, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU'RE
NOT SUPPOSED TO RUN AWAY, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO STEP UP TO THE
MONSTER AND SAY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY MIND AND WHAT CAN
YOU TEACH ME?
>> Stephen: DID YOU DO THAT?
DID YOU SEE ANY MONSTERS?
>> I SAW A LOT OF DEAD PEOPLE.
I SAW A LOT OF REALLY DISTURBING IMAGERY, BUT I ALSO HAD SOME
WONDERFUL EXPERIENCES.
THE MOST INTERESTING, THOUGH -- I USE THAT WORD ADVISEDLY --
>> Stephen: BY THE WAY, WAS EVERYTHING YOU WERE DOING
LEAGUELE?
>> NO.
>> Stephen: THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR YOU.
( PIANO RIFF ) >> NO, MY SENSE OF SELF FELL
APART.
IT WAS LIKE A BUNCH OF POST ITS BEING BLOWN IN THE WIND.
>> Stephen: WHAT WERE YOU ON?
ILISIBIN.
>> Stephen: YOU WERE BLOWN APART.
>> AND FOUND MYSELF SPREAD OUT ON THE LANDSCAPE LIKE PAINT BUT
I WAS EXPERIENCING IT FROM A VANTAGE THAT WASN'T MYSELF.
I KNOW IT'S WEIRD AND WE DON'T HAVE THE FIRST-PERSON PRONOUN TO
EXPLAIN THIS, BUT WHAT IT TAUGHT ME WAS THAT WE ASSUME WE'RE
IDENTICAL TO OUR EGO, THIS CHATTERING VOICE IN OUR HEADS
TELLING US WHAT TO DO.
>> Stephen: AND SOMETIMES CRITICIZING US A LOT.
>> AND CAN BE VERY HARSH, IT'S A PERFECTIONIST, BUT IT ALSO
DEFENDS US AGAINST FRESH EXPERIENCE, EMOTION, OTHER
PEOPLE.
>> Stephen: TELLS US TO BUILD A WALL, MEXICAN BORED, ALL KINDS
OF THINGS.
>> IT IS THAT VOICE.
THAT DISSOLVED IN SUCH A WAY THAT I FELT LIKE, OH, I'M NOT
IDENTICAL TO MY EGO.
THERE'S ANOTHER GROUPED ON WHICH TO STAND AND TAKE IN REALITY.
>> Stephen: THAT'S SOUND LIKE WHERE I WOULD LIKE TO LIVE.
>> YEAH!
AND IT'S REALLY THE IDEA THAT THESE DEFENSES YOU'VE BUILT UP
OVER YOUR WHOLE LIFE, YOU DON'T NEED THEM, AND THAT YOU CAN
LOWER THEM AND NOT FACE COMPLETE ANNIHILATION.
>> Stephen: SO EGO SHOULD BE A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE.
>> YES, EXACTLY.
>> Stephen: BRILLIANT IDEA!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
"HOW TO CHANGE YOUR MIND" IS OUT TOMORROW.
MICHAEL POLLAN, EVERYBODY!
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.