(gentle music)
- [Man] And you're rolling.
- Okay.
Hey everybody.
I'm joined by wonderful Elle Mills again.
Last time, if you didn't know,
we already did a collaboration.
I'm sure that'll come out first.
I assume. - Yes.
- And I, after we talked,
I thought about all the stuff
that we had discussed
kind of like, I don't know,
on a surface level
and so I texted Elle
and I was like hey, could we talk more about that?
And she was so nice.
And she was like yeah.
It was actually in the video
that we did on your channel
and I'll link that in the description
if you wanna see what I'm talking about.
But we barely, I guess,
discussed toggling between
different coping skills
and how you were curious
if that's like normal or not, right?
Do you remember that question? - Yes.
Yeah, and so to recap
would you wanna tell my audience
a little bit about the different
coping skills we were talking about?
- Yeah, so there's like,
for me like eating, overeating
or not eating at all.
And then spending.
So overspending and then,
actually just overspending.
(laughing)
That's it.
And then drinking.
Like going out and partying a lot.
- Yeah.
And I've talked to you guys a lot
about how we switch them.
That's why I'm calling them coping skills
is because it's not like a,
it's not like a mental illness.
It's just part of feeling overwhelmed
and trying to find a way
to feel better about it.
You know what I mean? - Yeah.
And so, do you notice
which one comes first?
Is there a certain order
or is it just all willy-nilly?
There's no right or wrong answer.
- Yeah, no, I'm trying to think.
It goes through waves I think.
But I'd say drinking, maybe.
Probably be the one, first one.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- 'Cause even coming to LA,
you'd said that's the one thing
you're allowing yourself to do
is just be like woo!
- Yeah.
- Do you think that's a bad sign
or is it like doing it here in this capacity is healthy?
- It's a mixture or like,
there's a lot of social stuff
like parties and stuff that I get invited to.
So I'm like okay I'm gonna go
and I let myself drink.
But I think it is,
like I find myself more willing to drink here
than I am back home
because when I'm home I'm more relaxed
and I'm like oh I don't really wanna feel drunk.
- Yeah, interesting.
- But here, I'm like,
after a long day I'm like,
I just go fuck it, I wanna go get drunk.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- I mean, I can even understand like after a long day
and like being on.
If you guys don't know what I'm talking about,
when we're around other people,
especially if I don't know anybody,
I'm like, I don't want anybody to go back
and be like Kati was such a bitch.
Like oh my God, I hate that person.
When I might've just been totally maxed out.
So I'm always like trying to be extra friendly
and that's actually exhausting
which I know sounds weird.
Does anybody else relate?
I get super tired.
And so sometimes having a drink
at the end of the day is like (sighs), you know?
But yours is like I'm gonna get drunk?
- Yeah, mine's always extreme.
I very rarely, or ever,
drink just like one drink.
If I'm drinking
I'm drinking to get drunk. - You're drinking.
Yeah that's why I said like allow myself to.
You're like I'm gonna go for it.
Does it make you feel better?
- It makes me
distracted.
Forget.
For that, yeah.
It makes me not care I think.
- Yeah, 'cause the inhibitions are gone, right?
- Yes.
- Do you find,
'cause something that I learned,
and maybe it's because I'm older.
So, prepare yourself for this
because your body definitely feels
a hangover more when you get older.
But do you find you have a mental hangover
at all from it?
Like do you wake up the next day
and be like (groans) what was I doing?
- Sometimes yes.
Yeah, for sure I do, yeah.
- 'Cause that's why I wonder
because I know from what my viewers have told me,
and even like my own experience,
that coping skill works for that period.
- Yeah, it does.
I don't know, for me like
it's just sometimes like
my brain's just going so much.
I just like, anything to stop it at that point.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- Have you tried any other distraction techniques?
- Examples? - I'm therapizing you now.
(laughs) - Yeah I know, I know.
- Calling a friend?
Like I know you FaceTime and chat.
- Yeah I know
but then I get a fear of like being a burden
and like, I feel like because,
especially what I went through a few months ago,
which is, I went through like a huge breakdown,
the friends I used,
I feel like I've overused them almost.
Like I feel like they're kind of exhausted too.
As exhausted as I am, I can only imagine.
- Have they told you that?
- One, well at the time
there was like we needed a bit of a break.
- Yeah, which is fair.
I've even had that happen.
I had a really shitty time.
Kind of, not for the same reason,
but a similar thing
where I just wasn't myself
and I'm like what's going on,
why am I so unhappy?
And one of my closest friends
was like you're really hard to be around right now.
And I was like trust me I know.
I feel it.
I don't wanna be around me.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- So are there other things
that help you cope
like listening to music,
going for walks?
If it's not talk,
you don't wanna be too much of a burden,
are there other things?
Do you doodle or journal or?
- No.
I mean I've tried maybe like,
I do hang out with friends without the drinking.
Maybe like let's go out to see a movie, let's go out.
I try to make sure I'm not alone.
That's what I do.
- Okay, that's good.
- I've been doing that a lot
where I just kind of go
from one place to the next
to the next to the next
so that I don't have time to overthink
or think by myself.
- No, that's a good idea.
I don't think that's bad at all.
- But then it drains me is the problem.
- And then you're on.
- It's just like.
- Have you tried like,
and now I don't know
if you're even into this stuff,
but like the Calm app or Headspace--
- Oh my God!
Hazel, you know who Hazel Hayes is?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- She told me to download it.
Yeah, so I do have it.
I tried it for a little bit.
- Okay, did you like it or were you like?
- Yeah I did but like I feel like my mind's still racing.
I don't know, maybe I just need
to do it more to get used to it, but yeah.
- It takes me a little while.
Like I have tried Headspace.
I recently downloaded the Calm app
but I haven't tried it yet.
But it takes me like three or four times of doing it
and I have to do it regular, like everyday,
before I'm able to actually not think about,
I mean, it's not that you don't have thoughts.
It's that I'm able to slow them down
and not have that like,
you know how it builds up?
Like it feels like you're spiraling?
Yeah, so maybe that.
- Yeah for sure.
- That can maybe help.
Okay so drinking's usually the first thing.
What's usually the second after that?
And how long do these little bouts last?
- The drinking?
- Yeah, like each coping skills.
Is it a couple nights
or is it like a week or two weeks?
- Two weeks.
And then I go what am I doing?
And then I go back to doing,
I think every two weeks it's a cycle kind of thing.
- Oh okay.
- It varies if how much work I'm doing that month.
- So if you're extra busy will it last--
- Longer, yeah. - Longer.
- I'd say eating.
Yeah. - Is the next thing?
- Eating's the next thing.
It's either one extreme to the other extreme.
- Has that always been something that you've struggled with?
- No. - No?
When did it, was it around like the burnout situation or?
- Yeah.
That's when it got...
Well I had experienced something slightly,
like an eating thing,
like end of high school
when I was very stressed and all that stuff.
But then it stopped
and then it came back again,
I'd say, yeah, this year.
- Yeah.
Is there anything that gets you out of that funk
or it always runs its full course?
- I haven't figured it out yet.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- And I mean the good news,
like from an outside perspective,
is that we know what's causing it.
- Yeah.
- It's like, it's essentially a lack of self-care.
That's what burnout really is, I think.
And like the talk I gave at PatreCon
was like the burnout occurs
when the reward isn't more than the effort that we put in.
And so you're putting in a shit ton of effort
and the rewards is still great
but it stays like the same.
- Yeah.
- And so as far as the eating stuff,
what snapped you out of that?
- It's more like the,
what's it called?
The want for, like to eat?
- Yeah like your appetite?
- My appetite.
Like just the desire to like,
it just becomes too much
and then I binge.
- Okay.
- And then I get to a point
where I go why did I do that to myself?
- Then you feel guilty for that.
- And then I go back. - And then back to the other.
- Yes.
- Yeah, which I think is very normal.
I'm sure a lot of you can relate to that.
It's like eating disorders
a lot of people think are just one thing.
But it's not.
It's like adaptive.
And depending on what we need
it like toggles back and forth.
Have you talked to your friends
about that at all?
- Only like two.
And yeah.
I don't know.
I've been trying.
It's like, I was good like two weeks before,
when I was doing absolutely nothing.
When I was doing absolutely nothing
I was so good.
It was just like eating healthy
and slashed going to the gym
and like I was able to like--
- I remember you did a video
about how you're doing now.
- Yeah.
- And you were like I've been doing good really
and I was going to the gym.
I hadn't been going to the gym at all.
Yeah.
- And then work started happening.
And it's just, yeah.
- Do you feel like it's
if you're working there's no way
to not work so much
that these things don't happen?
- I don't know.
Because I think it's just always something I've been,
I've had a problem with even in high school.
Like I overwork myself.
And I don't know why.
I think I'm just maybe a perfectionist.
Like I always try to make it, raise the bar.
Like with school projects.
Stuff that should only take an hour
I spent like a week on
because I wanted to make it--
- To perfect. - Yeah.
- Yeah.
Yeah and I mean you were really successful in school.
I learned that about you in your talk.
- Yes!
- I was like wow, you like kicked ass.
So, do you think it's a perfectionist thing
or do you think it has to do with the value?
Like do you place value,
does it make you feel more valuable?
- Yeah, actually yeah.
- If you're doing better?
- Yeah.
- How's your Mom?
I know you're closest to her right?
- Yeah.
- Has she always placed a large emphasis on success or?
I'm just curious where it came from I guess.
- Yeah, I think so.
Yeah my dad and my mom.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
But I'm thinking that the other kids don't--
- Yeah. - You know what I mean?
My brothers are just like, don't give a shit.
- Same with my brother
and I'm more like you are.
I'm like type A and have to do
everything to 100%
or I'm not doing, might as well
not do it at all kinda thing.
But it'd be interesting
for that aspect of it,
do you ever do any kind of
positive self-talk?
I know that sounds so cheesy
but positive self-talk stuff?
Like writing down three things
that you're grateful for
or that you like about yourself?
- During the breakdown, did it for a bit.
- Did it help?
- Well, yeah it did.
(laughing)
So, I wish I could do that, yes.
- Maybe just give it a try.
'Cause it's hard.
I know it's like daily.
But if it's one of your to-dos,
we can use your type A personality
to our advantage.
- Yes, we should, yes. (laughs)
- So, okay so we usually it's the alcohol
then it's eating
and then finally it's shopping then?
- Yeah overspend, yeah.
- Yeah.
- Well, shopping, it's for me,
it's just like being reckless and careless.
Being like whatever, fuck it.
I'll pay this, this, this, this and just spending--
- For no reason really. - Yeah.
- It's not like you go out on a shopping spree.
Or do you? - No.
- 'Cause no judgment, everybody's different.
- No, no, I just don't.
Yeah, I just like, if I need,
like buying a new lens
when I don't need a new lens.
You know what I mean?
Like I guess just like spending
and then going for videos.
Like spending money on stuff
that I could budget better
and I could've found resources.
I'm like no, fuck it.
Instead of going to look for someone
who has this thing I'm gonna go buy it.
- Yeah, I'll just do this. - Yeah, exactly.
- 'Cause I can. - Yeah.
It's usually when I'm stressed.
I'm just like whatever, I'm gonna spend it.
I'll deal with the problem later
is what I was going for.
- Yeah and I think sometimes,
at least I know from research
and then personal experience,
so research shows that shopping
does trigger our reward center in our brain.
So we're like oh, feels good.
We're like, nice!
But it's like a short lived thing.
So like it's a little bit of dopamine,
which is what makes us feel good,
and then it goes away.
- Yeah.
- And then like, it could be 30 minutes,
it could be a couple hours,
but it's usually not more than a day.
And then I know from personal experience then
that I do feel that rush of it when I overspend
and then immediately it's like
in order to continue keeping,
I don't know if you feel this way,
but to keep it at that rush
I have to keep spending and spending and spending.
Which I luckily haven't done.
Been able to keep myself under control.
But when I'm really stressed I'm like,
I'm gonna buy a, something for camera equipment,
I'm gonna buy a pair a pants I don't need.
I need this shirt because I'm filming this.
Like stupid shit I don't, or like I don't know.
I'm all about face masks.
So I'm gonna buy a face mask.
Even though it's $50, I don't really need it.
Yeah.
So have you ever,
is it just usually a one time thing
or do you do it for another two weeks?
- Usually if I'm like in video mode, which is like--
- Always. (laughs) - Yes.
But like when it's like a video
that needs to be done,
that's when it's at its worst.
- Okay, like in that little crunch time.
- Yes.
- Like maybe when you're editing or filming
or like in the process?
- Yeah, so like a week maybe
of just really bad spending.
- So it sounds like this kind of
runs over the course of six weeks.
Then does it start again?
Or do you have periods?
Like if you're not working
then you're able to like not do any of them?
- Yeah.
- But then if you get back in
then does it kinda start again?
- Right away, yeah.
- Has there been anything
that's stopped it completely
like in the midst of it
or shortened the timeframe?
- When I've done videos.
Which sucks.
It sounds so, yes. - It's such a clear trigger.
- Yeah it sounds bad but it's,
once I finished,
I'm like, I'm like whoa.
And I kinda zone back
and I'm like I don't need a drink that much.
Or like, or even gets to the point
to where I'm like I've over drank too much
and my body's just drained and exhausted
and I'm like okay I physically cannot do this anymore.
So it's either one of the two.
One where I'm able to like, I'm not stressed anymore
and I go whoa.
Or I'm like literally can't do it anymore.
- Yeah so it's either your body tells you
or you're finally not stressed.
- Yeah.
- Wow.
What do you think it is about the videos
that makes it so?
- I, no clue.
I wish I, this would solve a lot of my problems.
- Yeah, 'cause I'm like what is it about it?
'Cause I know from my research on burnout as a whole,
that online creators are more susceptible to it
because the reward always changes.
Whether it's something more that we need.
Like I need more fulfillment,
I need to know I'm helping more people
or I need to know it reaches more people
or I need more monetary reward,
whatever it is.
I don't know if you feel that
like it changes what you're wanting to get out of it.
- I don't know.
I feel like maybe it's like I need success.
Like I need that validation
and like if I don't post a really great video
then that starts, I start to lose that.
And then I'm afraid I will lose all the success I have.
Like I don't know, I think it's that.
- Yeah and that makes sense though.
And especially because like
we can actually watch it in real time.
Which sucks 'cause then you can see--
- You see the numbers.
- And everybody can see them.
So you're like. - Exactly.
- Yeah. - Exactly.
That makes it a lot worse.
I feel like if I was the only one
to see the numbers then I wouldn't feel that bad.
But knowing that everyone else can see
if I'm doing well or not.
- Yeah and you were like shot out of a cannon onto YouTube.
Like it's not like you had
that slow burn, like myself. (laughs)
Where you just like,
I'm doing my thing
and only so many people are watching, that's fine.
And then you're growing little.
You were like woo!
- Yeah.
- So, yeah, how do you...
'Cause then essentially,
like how do you keep that trajectory?
You can't. - You can't.
It will eventually slow down
and realizing that's just been really hard.
- Yeah, of course.
Especially if we like place our own personal value in it.
Which it sounds like,
I mean we all do, let's be honest.
What we do whether or not we want to admit it,
becomes a part of who we are.
- But I definitely put my value into that.
- Yeah.
So maybe finding other ways
to get value for yourself
would be the best.
I know that's a hard thing.
It's not like oh, let's fix it today.
- Yeah, yeah.
- But I wonder if there are
other things that you can find value in.
Like obviously your relationships is one.
- Yes.
- Are there other things
that you enjoy doing
that you feel good about when you do?
- I just, I guess like hanging out with friends
'cause it used to be videos.
Well I mean, I still enjoy making videos.
(laughing)
But you know what I mean like--
- Let's not get twisted.
- Yeah, there's an added pressure to that, like.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - So, just like friends
and family I guess.
- Yeah and find-- - Maybe I should find a hobby.
- That's what I was just thinking.
Like try new hobbies, try things.
Like Sean and I go snowboarding in the winter.
You're welcome to join us anytime.
- Yes, that'd be cool!
- Whatever sounds fun to you, you know?
'Cause maybe that's like the answer.
Even though it's not easy.
But do do the self-talk stuff.
I think that will help.
- Yes.
- But yeah, thanks for sharing your story.
- Oh no worries.
- I don't expect there to be any real answers.
Nobody really has answers
but you're here and you're doing better.
- Yes.
- And you know, I think that's always positive.
- For sure.
- She has a great story to share you guys.
If you haven't watched,
I know the burnout video is like intense,
but just learning about her.
Checking out her channel,
watching her process
and her progress in life.
Like the one, I forget, probably two months ago
about like how you're doing now.
- Oh, the aftermath of my YouTube breakdown.
- Yes, and I think that one's
really good and really empowering.
So I'll link that in the description.
And I just heard you give an amazing speech on burnout
and it was at PatreCon because she has a Patreon page.
And I will link to that video
because I thought the speech was just amazing.
- Oh, thank you.
- It was really good. - Yes.
- And so you can check that out.
It really gives more context
to kind of what we're talking about.
Because the videos on your channel are amazing
but this gives like the whole version
instead of an abridged version.
So check that out.
Check out her Patreon page.
And thanks for sharing.
- No worries.
- And we'll see you next time.
- Bye. - Bye.
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