Welcome to the show.
Hi. I'm very happy to be here.
You know what-what gets me is you're a hugger,
and I'm not used to hugging people who are taller than me.
-(gasps) -I don't know where to place myself
in a taller-person hug.
It is kind of awkward, 'cause you get the arm sandwich moment.
Yeah, but I'm... 'Cause I'm used to, like, tall hug.
-I know how to hug down. -Right.
And then, like, you're the first person I've hugged
who's taller than me, and I don't know how
to engage in that hug at all.
Yeah. I did have a growth spurt, like, you know,
20 minutes ago, to be fair.
-Okay. Okay... -It's artificial.
-(laughter) -Welcome to the show.
Um, and congratulations on your book--
Sissy: A Coming-of-Gender Story. -Mm.
Let's first talk about the title.
I mean, Sissy would seem like the title
that everybody would want to stay away from,
because that's a derogatory term many people have used
-to describe people who are queer... -Mm.
gender non-conforming, etcetera, etcetera.
And yet, in the book, you talk about how,
through self-love, you've learned
to own these titles as badges of pride.
What does that mean?
Yeah, well, it's funny, because in some ways,
"sissy" was the first word that I had
to even name my difference.
You know, I didn't know the word "transgender" when I was a kid.
-I didn't even know the word "gay"... -Right.
as early as I knew that sissies--
people who are gender different-- was the thing.
Um, and so, the whole point of this book for me is
to kind of excavate the story of my gender
and really not take any part of it for granted.
And so, the naming it Sissy is about reclaiming my childhood
-for myself. -Mm-hmm.
You know what I mean? And-and learning
to, uh, kind of, like, snatch back the power
from people who try to be, like,
"Oh, you shouldn't be like that."
And you just kind of be like, "Well, I mean,
"if you think you're gonna, like, tease me with that name,
like, it's the title of my damn book now, so, sorry."
(applause and cheering)
Like, oops. (laughs)
One thing I really enjoyed about this book was the way
you tackled conversations in and around being trans,
being gay, being gender non-conforming.
Because we cannot deny that in society
it is a difficult topic to broach, because A:
a lot of the time we don't even know where to begin.
-Right. -Right? Everyone's afraid
of stepping on a landmine somewhere.
And then, for some people, it just makes them uncomfortable,
-because they've been taught certain things growing up. -Mm.
Why did you feel like humor needs
to be part of the conversation?
Why do you say that people shouldn't take it as seriously?
Like, they should respect it, but they should be able
to laugh and joke about gender.
That seems like a... a controversial thing to say.
Right. Well, in the process of writing this book,
and also in the process of promoting it,
I feel like I've learned a new identity for myself,
which I didn't realize was so necessary.
But I'm gender chill, y'all. You know what I mean?
Like, ev... Like, I...
'Cause I don't want to live in a world...
Like, I want to think about what is the future
-we want to build for trans folks? -Right.
Right. What is the future that I want to live in?
And the future I want to live in is not some future
where, like, you know, there's no gender,
and everyone wears, like, grey hoodies and sweatshirts...
-Yes. -and, like, you know, shaves their head,
and, like, whatever.
Like, that's not the world I want to live in.
I want to live in a world where gender is this playful thing,
where there's no patriarchy, no misogyny,
none of the things that make gender suck,
-um, and only the things that make gender great. -Right.
I want it to feel like a dress-up bin, you know?
And, like, some kids, you know, don't even play dress-up
but, like, watch oth... they go, you know, color,
-Yes. -and then some children-- I don't know who--
like, you know, go in the dress-up bin and are like,
"Um, how much can I put on my body
-and still stand up?" -Right. And that's something...
that's something you actually encourage in the book,
which I found really interesting.
You said one of the things that you think
could help us in society is if people experimented more
with their gender, so people going out there and dressing
in clothes that they wouldn't normally...
You said, for instance, everybody should try on
a three-piece suit, regardless of their gender,
-just try it on and see how it feels. -Yeah.
Why do you think that's so important?
Well, the... one of the myths, I think, of the way
that the trans movement has done our messaging
is the idea that, like, oh, cis people have a stable gender.
You know, like, people who aren't transgender
have a gender that's simple.
I'm like, girl, no one has a simple gender.
That's a silly idea. Um, and more importantly,
everyone should try out new things.
You know, we grow up in a world,
or at least most of us grow up in a world,
where our gender possibilities are shut down
-from the moment we're children. -Right.
And I think it is... it is everyone's responsibility
and everyone's opportunity to explore, um,
what else that could look like.
Why do you think people are so afraid of it, though,
and-and so hateful towards it?
Because, I mean, in my world, I've always gone,
if somebody's not hurting me or it's not hurting other people,
why does it affect you?
But there are people who are vehemently opposed
to everything that you represent as a human being.
Have you ever engaged with somebody like that,
and have you ever figured out why people are so against it?
Yeah. I have a lot of empathy, actually,
for people who are really uncomfortable around me,
or who, you know, stigmatize trans folks,
or who, you know, just, like, plain straight-up hate,
you know, gender-nonconforming people,
and the reason I have empathy is because it's, like,
when someone catcalls me in the street,
you know, when someone, you know, like, is violent
towards trans folks, I'm just like,
"Darling, your trauma is showing."
You know? Like, the only reason that you would lash out
against a trans person is because you've been traumatized
on the basis of your gender, too.
You know, that, like, something about your gender went wrong,
or someone told you that you couldn't cry
when you were a child, or someone told you
that this is how you had to be, and you see someone, like moi,
with such freedom, and you don't know how to handle it.
(cheering, applause)
Um, to that effect...
-I brought you a little present. -You brought me a present?
-Yes. So, I introduced a term... -Oh, you brought me
-a little bag. I love bags! -Yes, a little baggie.
-I got a bag! I love bags! -A little gift bag.
She always leave a party giving people gift bags.
Um, so, back in the... when we talked in the dressing room,
-Yes. -I taught you a term.
-Yes. -Uh, the term is "gender-(bleep)."
All right. I have never heard of that before.
Yeah, and it's not like it's not what it sounds like.
It's, like, playing with your gender
and having a damn good time.
Um, and so I brought you some clip-on earrings.
-Oh, wow. -Because I figured you could use...
-So I get to wear these? -Yeah. So...
You know what kills me with clip-ons all the time is they
-give me headaches. -But these ones aren't tight, I promise.
-Are you sure? -They're good ones. No, th...
'Cause a lot of the time they'll, like,
-give you a headache... -No, they're gentle.
-(laughter, cheering) -Yes.
-(cheering) -Look at that! Wow.
Trevor, this is... this is...
I mean, like, I don't want to... I don't want to, like,
be your stylist right now, and I don't want to, like,
you know, but I just... this is a look.
You realize this is a look, right?
You know what's interesting for me...
to your ideas of gender and how we identify it
and what signifies gender around the world is,
in South Africa and in many African cultures,
men will wear earrings like this
-and, to your point, it doesn't... -Mm.
like, no one would be like, "Oh, that man is not man"
or "is..." Do you get what I'm saying?
-Yeah. -It's funny, 'cause like this, I'm just like,
"I, I look traditional right now. I could be..."
-Yes. -Like, that's what I'm thinking right now.
-Right. -Like, if my grandmother saw this,
she'd be like, "Finally!
-Hey! -He's connecting with his roots!"
-Yes! -Thank you so much for being on the show.
-Of course. -It's a really beautiful book
-(cheering) -that talks about gender
in a really honest and funny way.
Sissy is available now.
Jacob Tobia, everybody.