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>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.
MY NEXT GUEST IS THE ANCHOR OF "FOX NEWS SUNDAY" AND HAS SPENT
OVER 55 YEARS IN THE BROADCAST INDUSTRY.
HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED "COUNTDOWN 1945."
PLEASE WELCOME CHRIS WALLACE CHRIS, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> WHERE IS THE BAND, AND WHERE IS THE CROWD?
I THOUGHT I WAS DOING "THE STEPHEN COLBERT SHOW."
>> Stephen: WE'RE GOING TO LAY ALL THAT IN LATER, BELIEVE ME.
WE'LL HAVE A CHEERING CROWD FOR ANYTHING I SAY.
I PROMISE YOU.
>> I'M SURE.
AND THEY'LL BOO ME, AS THEY USUALLY DO.
>> Stephen: WELL, IT'S TRADITION.
IT'S TRADITION, CHRIS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THANK YOU.
NOW, YOU'VE BEEN A REPORTER FOR OVER 55 YEARS.
( SIGHS ) HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE
THE MOMENT WE'RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW?
DO YOU HAVE ANY POINTS OF REFERENCE OR FRAME FOR WHAT'S
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?
>> I THOUGHT ABOUT IT A LOT, ANYTHING LIKE WHAT WE'RE SEEING
IN 2020.
THE ONLY YEAR THAT COMES TO MIND IS 1968.
AND I WAS A SENIOR IN COLLEGE.
BUT THINK BACK THEN-- OR FOR MOST PEOPLE IT WILL PROBABLY BE
GOOGLE BACK THEN-- WE HAD THE VIETNAM WAR RAGING.
LYNDON JOHNSON, THE PRESIDENT, SUDDENLY RESIGNED-- WELL, HE
DIDN'T RESIGN, HE SAID HE WASN'T GOING TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.
WE HAD THE TERRIBLE ASSASSINATION OF MARTIN LUTHER
KING.
CITIES ON FIRE.
MUCH MORE SO THAN THE PROTESTS WE'RE SEEING THIS YEAR.
THEN THE ASSASSINATION OF BOBBY KENNEDY, AND THEN THE PROTESTS
AND THE POLICE BEATING OF PROTESTERS IN THE STREETS OF
CHICAGO DURING THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.
AND A LITTLE BIT-- ALTHOUGH I THINK THAT WAS WORSE THAN THIS
YEAR-- THE SAME FEELING OF IS THE COUNTRY JUST GOING TO COME
APART?
THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF THAT SAME FEELING.
THE ONE THING WE'RE HAVING THIS YEAR THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE THEN OF
COURSE IS THE PANDEMIC AND THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE THAT CAME WITH
THAT.
SO THAT'S AN ADDED FEATURE FOR 2020.
>> Stephen: WELL, ANOTHER SORT OF ADDED FEATURE FO 2020 IS YOU
HAVE ALL THESE RETIRED MILITARY COMING OUT AND EXPRESSING--
WELL, THEIR CRITICISM, THEIR DISTRESS, THE DISMAY AT THE
BEHAVIOR OF OUR PRESENT PRESIDENT.
POWELL, MULLEN-- WHO YOU HAD ON, ADMIRAL MULLEN, YOU HAD HIM ON
"FOX NEWS SUNDAY" THIS WEEK, I UNDERSTAND.
AND OF COURSE GENERAL MATTIS.
DOES THIS SURPRISE YOU?
HAVE YOU SEEN THIS LEVEL OF EXMILITARY COMING OUT SO
FORCEFULLY SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT?
>> WELL, AND MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PRESIDENT, THE COMMAND
COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
I'M NOT PARTICULARLY SURPRISED BY COLIN POWELL.
I MEAN, HE'S BEEN FOR EVERY DEMOCRAT SINCE BARACK OBAMA IN
2008.
BUT MULLEN AND ESPECIALLY MATTIS I'M SURPRISED AT.
MATTIS WROTE A MEMOIR, EITHER EARLIER THIS YEAR, LATE LAST
YEAR, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE DISAPPOINTED.
BECAUSE, REMEMBER, HE RESIGNED BECAUSE OF A POLICY DISAGREEMENT
OVER PULLING TROOPS OUT OF SYRIA.
AND IT WAS CLEAR HE WAS NOT VERY HAPPY WITH THE PRESIDENT.
AND WHEN HE WROTE HIS MEMOIR, A LOT OF PEOPLE-- INCLUDING
MYSELF-- WERE DISAPPOINTED THAT HE DIDN'T SAY WHAT HE HAD TO SAY
ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.
AND HE SAID, "I THINK I OWE HIM THE DUTY OF SILENCE," WHICH I
UNDERSTOOD AS KIND OF A MILITARY HONOR THAT "I SERVED HIM AS THE
SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, AND I'M NOT GOING TO UNDERCUT HIM IN THE
MIDDLE OF HIS PRESIDENCY, ESPECIALLY THE TERM THEY SERVED
WITH HIM, DURING."
AND THAT BROKE THIS WEEK.
AND IT BROKE BECAUSE HE WAS JUST FED UP WITH WHAT HE FELT WAS THE
PRESIDENT'S DIVISIVE NATURE.
HE SAID THAT, "I'VE BEEN IN SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY FOR
DECADES."
I GUESS PROBABLY HALF A CENTURY FOR HIM, TOO.
AND HE SAID, "ALL PRESIDENTS HAVE TRIED TO UNITE US, AND THIS
ONE" HE SAYS, "TRIES TO DIVIDE US."
THAT WAS PRETTY SHOCKING AND I THINK PRETTY DAMAGING TO THE
PRESIDENT.
>> Stephen: SPEAK OF THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ABILITY OR HIS
INABILITY TO UNITE US, THERE WAS SOME TALK-- AND THIS IS SORT
OF-- THIS IS REPORTING SORT OF FROM ANONYMOUS SOURCES IN THE
WHITE HOUSE, THAT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TEAM HAD CONSIDERED
GIVING A SPEECH LAST WEEK OF UNITY AND ADDRESSING THE RACIAL
DIVIDE AND THE USE OF FORCE BY POLICE AGAINST BLACK COMMUNITIES
IN THE UNITED STATES BUT DECIDED AGAINST IT BECAUSE, "A", IT
STYLISTICALLY DOESN'T MEET THE PRESIDENT, AND ALSO THEY DON'T
HAVE CONCRETE PROPOSALS TO GO WITH IT.
NOW THERE'S TALK OF THAT AGAIN.
IS IT TOO LATE, IN YOUR OPINION ., FOR HIM TO DO THAT?
HE'S ALREADY SORT OF PUT HIS MARKER DOWN, THAT THESE PEOPLE
ARE VIOLENT.
THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT REAL PROTESTERS.
THESE PEOPLE ARE TERRORISTS.
EVEN MR. GUGINO FROM BUFFALO, HE'S AN ANTIFA.
HE WAS SECRETLY TRYING TO BLOCK COPS' RADIOS.
HAS HE THROWN AWAY ALL OF HIS POLITICAL CAPITAL ON DOUBLING
DOWN THAT THESE PROTESTERS AND THIS OPPOSITION TO THE WAY THAT
HIS ADMINISTRATION HAS RESPONDED TO THIS AREN'T LEGITIMATE ENOUGH
TO ADDRESS?
>> I'D PUSH BACK A LITTLE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK HE HAS
SAID ALL THE PROTESTERS ARE VIOLENT.
IN FACT, HE SAID-- WHEN HE MADE HIS STATEMENT IN THE ROSE GARDEN
A WEEK AGO MONDAY, HE SAID THAT "I'M THE PRESIDENT OF LAW AND
ORDER, AND A FRIEND OF PEACEFUL PROTESTS."
BUT I CERTAINLY TAKE YOUR GENERAL POINT, WHICH IS --
>> Stephen: BUT WHILE HE SAID THAT, IN THE MIDDLE OF SAYING
THAT, YOU COULD HEAR THE FLASH GRENADES GOING OFF IN THE
BACKGROUND.
>> I KNOW.
>> Stephen: AGAINST PEACEFUL PROTESTERS.
SO HE HAS NO GROUND TO STAND ON THERE.
>> WELL, I KNOW THAT'S YOUR VIEW.
I'M NOT GOING -- >> Stephen: IT'S MY VIEW.
THAT IS THAAD ACTUALLY HAPPENED!
IF SOMEBODY SAYS I'M NOT A VIOLENT PERSON--
>> I DON'T WANT TO BE IN THE POSITION OF DEFENDING HER, BUT
I'M CITING THE RECORD THAT THE PRESIDENT SAID THERE ARE
PROTESTERS, WHICH HE SUPPORTS THAT, AND THEN THERE ARE VIOLENT
PEOPLE, AND THERE CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN THAT AS WELL.
BUT TO GET TO THE BIGGER POINT, I CERTAINLY THINK THAT THERE
WERE PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS WHERE
THE PRESIDENT, WHO HAS COME DOWN, YOU KNOW, VERY HARD ON LAW
AND ORDER, AND EVEN EARLIER THIS WEEK, MET WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT
OFFICIALS, YOU KNOW, HE HASN'T HAD CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS IN, HE
HASN'T HAD THE FAMILY OF GEORGE FLOYD IN.
HE WOULD HAVE HAD A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES TO MAKE TWO
POINTS, I THINK BOTH OF WHICH ARE VALID, WHICH IS THAT THERE
ARE SOME SERIOUS CONCERNS HERE ABOUT-- ABOUT POLICING IN
AFRICAN AMERICAN, MINORITY COMMUNITIES, AND, YOU KNOW, SOME
OF THE MISCONDUCT THAT HAPPENS THERE, SOME OF THE UNEQUAL
TREATMENT.
YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT MINNEAPOLIS, WHERE POLICE ARE
SEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO USE FORCE AGAINST YOUNG BLACK MEN
THAN THEY ARE AGAINST YOUNG WHITE MEN.
I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME STATS THAT JUST INDICATE IT.
AND HE COULD HAVE DONE, THAT WHILE AT THE SAME TIME ESPOUSING
LAW AND ORDER.
AND HE SEEMS-- AND I THINK THIS IS HIS INSTINCT-- THAT HE WANTED
TO ACCENTUATE ONE AND NOT REALLY SAY VERY MUCH-- A LITTLE-- BUT
NOT VERY MUCH ABOUT THE OTHER.
>> Stephen: DO YOU THINK IT'S JUST HIS INSTINCTS, OR DO YOU
THINK HE'S GETTING BAD ADVICE?
I KNOW HE HAS AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER SORT OF CIRCLE OF
ADVISERS BECAUSE ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH HIM GETS THE
DOOR.
>> I-- I THINK THAT AS TIME HAS GONE ON-- AND I AGREE WITH YOU
THAT PEOPLE THAT PUSH BACK TOO MUCH AGAINST THE PRESIDENT DON'T
HAVE LONG-- LONG TO LIVE IN THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.
I THINK THAT IT'S MORE AND MORE TRUMP UNPLUGGED, TRUMP'S VISION
OF THE WORLD, AND TRUMP'S TRUMP' INSTINCTS.
SO WHEN HE'S REACTED OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS AS HE HAS,
WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, I THINK IT'S-- IT'S DONALD TRUMP.
>> Stephen: NOW, YOU'VE MADE THE PRESIDENT MAD A FEW TIMES.
YOU'VE-- WITH YOUR-- I BELIEVE THE WORD IS "WITH YOUR FACT
CHECKING."
YOU SAID-- HE TWEETED THIS ABOUT YOU RECENTLY.
>> ARE WE REALLY-- ARE WE GOING TO DO MEAN TWEETS.
I THOUGHT ANOTHER LATE-NIGHT SHOW DID MEAN TWEETS?
>> HE DOESN'T HAVE A COPYRIGHT, UNFORTUNATELY.
>> NOT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY?
>> Stephen: NO, NO WITH THE JUST WATCHED MIKE WALLACE
WANNABE CHRIS WALLACE ON FOX NEWS, I BELIEVE HE'S WORSE THAN
SLEEPY EYED CHUCK TODD OF MEET THE PRESS.
WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING AT FOX NEWS?
IT'S A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME OVER THERE."
DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD WHEN THIS HAPPENS BECAUSE FAY
JOURNALIST MAKES THE COMFORTABLE UNCOMFORTABLE, AND THE POWERFUL
A LITTLE BIT ON EDGE, HAVEN'T YOU DONE YOUR JOB?
>> YEAH, I WILL SAY-- YES, GENERALLY SPEAKING I WOULD AGREE
WITH THAT, AND PARTICULARLY IF YOU MAKE BOTH SIDES MAD.
>> Stephen: OH, YOU DO, YOU DO.
>> LISTEN, I TICK YOU OFF, SO I JUST SEEM TO BE --
>> Stephen: I'M NOT A POLITICIAN.
>> I UNDERSTAND.
IT'S ON A HUMAN LEVEL THAT YOU HATE ME.
>> Stephen: I DON'T HATE YOU, MAN.
I DON'T HATE YOU.
I LOVE HAVING YOU ON.
CHRIS WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK BUT WHEN WE COME BACK
WE'LL TALK ABOUT CHRIS' NEW BOOK, "COUNTDOWN 45".
STICK AROUND.