ZELENSKYY'S COURAGE AND TIME AND
RUSSIAN CASUALTIES COULD CHANGE
THE POLITICAL CALCULUS IN RUSSIA
ON THE VIABILITY OF THIS WAR.
>> JULIA IOFFE, IN YOUR LATEST
ARTICLE FOR "PUCK" YOU WRITE,
QUOTE, IT CAN BE HARD FOR
AMERICANS TO UNDERSTAND WHY
RUSSIA'S INVACCINATION OF
UKRAINE HAS TOUCHED SUCH A RAW
NERVE IN EUROPE.
EVEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
DID NOT EXPECT THE EUROPEAN
RESPONSE TO BE SO FAST AND SO
FURIOUS.
THE WIDESPREAD EXPECTATION AFTER
ALL WAS THAT SANCTIONS,
COORDINATED BETWEEN THE UNITED
STATES AND EUROPE, WOULD BE
ROLLED OUT SLOWLY.
THE FACT THAT THERE IS A LAND
WAR HAPPENING AGAIN IN EUROPE
LESS THAN A CENTURY SINCE THE
LAST ONE, AND USING A LOT OF THE
SAME LANGUAGE, HAS BEEN
EXTREMELY TRIGGERING FOR
EUROPEANS.
FOR EUROPEANS, AS SOME OF THE
CONTINENT'S OFFICIALS HAVE TOLD
PEOPLE IN THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION, THIS IS OUR
9/11.
IT ALSO DOES TRIGGER MEMORIES
THAT ARE VERY FRESH.
YOU KNOW, HERE IN AMERICA WE'VE
BEEN SIDE TRACKED AND DISTRACTED
BY A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS IN
THE PAST FEW YEARS, BUT EUROPE,
THEIR MEMORIES ARE FRESH AND
REAL AND THEY HOLD ON TO THEM.
>> MIKA'S MOM IS 90 YEARS OLD.
>> YEAH, I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU
MUST KNOW.
>> SHE WAS CHASED OUT OF
CZECHOSLOVAKIA, HER FATHER WAS
CHASED OUT OF POLAND.
THEIR TRANSPORT SHIP GOT STRUCK
BY A GERMAN TORPEDO THAT THEY
HAD TO -- I MEAN IT IS A
NIGHTMARE.
SO MIKA CAN'T KEEP THE TV ON IN
HER MOM'S HOUSE, IT BRINGS BACK
TOO MANY BAD MEMORIES.
BUT IT IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE,
IT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN
UKRAINE.
WE TALKED ABOUT STALIN KILLED
MAYBE 3 TO 4 MILLION UKRAINIANS
IN THE 1930s.
THIS IS STILL A LIVING MEMORY
FOR SO MANY PEOPLE IN UKRAINE
AND ACROSS EUROPE RIGHT NOW.
>> YEAH.
I THINK UNFORTUNATELY A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO SPERCHSEDEXPERIENCED
SURVIVED THAT ARE NO LONGER WITH
US, WHICH MAKES ME WONDER IF
THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE
REPEATING THIS.
AS YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU AND ME, WE
GREW UP WITH THESE MEMORIES,
THIS IS TRAUMA PASSED DOWN
GENERATION TO GENERATION.
IT IS KIND OF THE WHOLE CLOTH OF
OUR FAMILY STORIES IS SURVIVAL
AROUND GETTING OUT IN THE NICK
OF TIME.
>> DO YOUR PARENTS HOARD FOOD?
>> NO.
>> MY MOM DOES, HIDES IT.
>> NO, BUT MY MOM HAS NOT BEEN
ABLE TO STOP CRYING BECAUSE OF
THE MEMORIES, BECAUSE OF WHAT
HER PARENTS LIVED THERE.
I'M SO GLAD ONE GRANDMOTHER
WHOSE FATHER IS FROM ODESA IS NO
LONGER WITH US TO SEE THIS, AND
THE OTHER GRANDMOTHER FROM AN
AREA THAT IS BEING BOMBED IS
KIND OF SO OLD SHE DOESN'T
REALLY KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON,
SHE CAN'T SEE THIS.
>> YOU THINK OF MADELEINE
ALBRIGHT.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT'S VIEW OF THE
WORLD WHEN SHE WAS SECRETARY OF
STATE WAS SHAPED BY HER FAMILY
BEING RUN OUT OF EUROPE BY
HITLER.
>> AND TONY BLINKEN, FOR
EXAMPLE, I THINK TO BRING IT
BACK TO THE 9/11 ANALOGY, IF YOU
THINK ABOUT WHAT 9/11 WAS FOR
US, IT WAS THIS SHOCKING
REMINDER AFTER ABOUT A DECADE OF
PROSPERITY AND PIECE, AT LEAST
IN THE U.S. THAT ACTUALLY
HISTORY HADN'T ENDED.
ACTUALLY, WE WERE VULNERABLE.
I THINK THE EUROPEANS NEVER
THOUGHT IT WOULD HAPPEN AGAIN ON
THEIR CONTINENT, ESPECIALLY IN
THE SAME PLACES WHERE SOME OF
THE FIERCEST FIGHTING OF WORLD
WAR II TOOK PLACE USING THE SAME
LANGUAGE WITH BOTH SIDES CALLING
EACH OTHER NAZIS.
IT IS JUST -- IF YOU MAKE SOME
OF THESE IMAGES BLACK AND WHITE
I FEEL LIKE IT COULD BE JUNE
1941.
>> MIKE BARNICLE.
>> GENERAL McCAFFREY, LISTENING
TO THIS CONVERSATION THIS
MORNING I AM WONDERING WHAT YOU
THINK ABOUT THIS.
IT WASN'T THAT LONG AGO -- YOU
DON'T HAVE TO LOOK IN THE
REARVIEW MIRROR THAT LONG TO
REALIZE WE WERE SURROUNDED BY
TALK ABOUT THE DEATH OF
DEMOCRACY AROUND THE GLOBE.
VARIOUS COUNTRIES EDGING TOWARD
ANNA OKAY RATHER.
YET IN AN ODD WAY DO YOU THINK
THE EFFORTS OF PRESIDENT BIDEN
AND YOU REFERENCED ANTONY
BLINKEN'S TRIP HE IS STILL ON,
IN PROPPING UP COUNTRIES, NATO,
ET CETERA, DO YOU THINK REVIVAL
OF THE DEMOCRACY MIGHT BE ONE OF
THE RESULTS OF WHAT WE'RE
WITNESSING TODAY?
>> YEAH, WELL, I DON'T KNOW
ABOUT REVIVAL.
I DO THINK THAT CRISES LIKE THIS
BRINGS FORWARD IN PEOPLE'S MIND
HOW PRECIOUS FREEDOM IS AND HOW
ABHORRENT LIFE IS LIVING UNDER
THE MENACE OF THE RUSSIAN ARMED
FORCES, THE RUSSIAN SECRET
POLICE, ET CETERA.
SO THROUGHOUT EUROPE -- AND I
THINK MIKA HAS MADE THIS POINT.
1945, '39 TO '45 WAS YESTERDAY
WHEN THE CITIES CAME DOWN, WHEN
EUROPE WAS DESTROYED FROM THE
URAL MOUNTAINS ALL THE WAY TO
THE CHANNEL, WHEN THE BRITS HUNG
ON BY THEIR EYE TEETH IN 1940. THOSE MEMORIES HAVE RESURFACED
THOSE MEMORIES HAVE RESURFACED
AND ALMOST THIS WILL TREAT
UKRAINE NOW AS IF THEY'RE NOT
READY TO GIVE MY LIFE.
THEY WERE A FACTIONALIZED, SEMI
CORRUPT COUNTRY TWO WEEKS AGO.
I THINK YOU MAKE THE POINT IT IS
ACTUALLY WORTH FIGHTING AND
DYING FOR THE FREEDOM OF YOUR
PEOPLE.
THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN PLAY OUT
ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE.
>> JULIA, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO
I DECIDED TO WRITE A BOOK ON
HARRY TRUMAN.
>> HEARD OF HIM.
>> NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE WRITE ON
HARRY TRUMAN, BUT THE REASON WHY
WAS HE PUT TOGETHER DEMOCRATIC
INSTITUTIONS, POST-WAR
INSTITUTIONS THAT SAVED WESTERN
CIVILIZATIONS, WHETHER YOU ARE
TALKING ABOUT NATO, WHETHER YOU
ARE TALKING ABOUT THE TRUMAN
DOCTRINE, MARSHAL PLAN, BERLIN
AIRLIFT, AND AT THE TIME WE HAD
A PRESIDENT IN THE WHITE HOUSE