♪ BoB and Brad ♪
♪ The two most famous ♪
♪ Physical therapists ♪
♪ On the internet ♪
- Hi, folks!
I'm Bob Schrupp, physical therapist.
- Brad Heineck, physical therapist.
- Okay, we are the most famous
physical therapists on the internet.
- In our opinion, of course.
- That's right. I wonder who this guy is?
Today, we're going to talk about
what happens to your body when you vape.
This is a big, I'd say ...
A timely question, wouldn't you?
- Right, it's definitely a hot spot in society,
and you and I really could not cover this adequately,
so we got someone in here ...
- We got an expert, thank God.
And Chris has been with us before, Chris the Pharmacist.
- Hi, guys!
- We refer to you as that nomenclature, is that okay?
- Sure, that's perfect.
- Chris is a smart guy, so we're really pleased
to have him here again today, really a brilliant guy.
So, he'll be able to espouse his views on this
and get you set straight, so ...
- Right, it's really science-based and the facts
are what they are, and we'll find out.
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All right, so how are we going to start this show, Brad?
- Well, first of all, vaping ...
Maybe not everyone is familiar with it.
Chris, vaping ...
- Well, basically, I think vaping is kind of the biggest
trend that, I think, a lot of kids like to do these days
that came into play ...
You know, actually, interestingly enough,
the history of it itself ...
There was a gentleman by the name of Joseph Robinson
in 1927, filed his patent for a ...
Basically an e-cigarette at that point in time ...
- So, it's been around a long time.
- It's been around, but it didn't go anywhere.
And then, so, and then there was another one,
Herbert Gilbert, 1967.
He came up with the smokeless, tobacco-free e-cigarette,
and that didn't really have much caché, so to speak.
- Sure.
- From that standpoint, but then, generally,
interestingly enough, there was a pharmacist in China,
his name was Han Lik, L-I-K, and in 2003,
he lost his father to lung cancer, and so he was trying
to come up with an alternative to smoking,
because his father and he himself were a smoker.
- Sure.
- And so he came up with, really, the incarnation
of what we see that's really, kind of, become the rage
since 2007, and that kind of brings us up to where
vaping is today, you know?
You see several, I mean, right now, it's up to 3.6 million
kids that admit to actually vaping,
so it's a large number of ...
- Well, I'm going to just tell the quick story.
My nephew and I, I have a lot of nephews, so I won't
be able to reveal the school, but he ...
We ask him,
"How many kids do you think vape at your school?"
He said 70 percent, and a lot of the kids do it in class.
They go like this, they're real sneaky about it.
They'll just (exhales), and they'll put it down again,
so, I mean, it's a huge problem there, you said so ...
- Yeah, we got to get into that, but ...
Because some of them make smoke
and some don't make smoke, is that ...
- I don't know anything about that.
- I think that, just, with the newer units, I think it's
not quite as, I guess, as visible, because it's still
a water vapor that, essentially comes off
when you're inhaling it, so ...
- I saw a lady next to me on a plane before they banned
them on planes, that she did it
and I didn't see any smoke, so ...
- Sure, but I see on TV where they show a lot of smoke
and doing smoke rings, and it's amazing
what those kind of ...
So, it must depend on the oil or whatever.
- I think, you know, it depends on, I think, the pen
and the oil, the types of things that they actually
place in the vapes, so that point, but all things being
considered, I mean, the lung is designed for air.
It's not designed for anything else, you know,
from that standpoint, and I think
one of the dangers is that ...
- So, you're saying that this is a negative issue.
- Oh, yeah.
No, this is not something that we would endorse.
- Sure.
- So, in any way, shape, or form.
If somebody asked the question, "What's better,
"smoking or vaping?" I think you're going to see that
vaping is probably the better option, but it's the
lesser of two evils.
- Right.
- So, I mean, you've got 7,000 chemicals that are in a
cigarette after it combusts, and then basically,
from that standpoint, vaping, once you light it,
it breaks down into about 93, 94 different chemicals
that are identified, and those are the things that
are actually ...
Those break down, and those are things that become very
dangerous because it's superheated to around, you know,
380, 400 degrees, so when you're inhaling that
into the lungs, the teeny, tiny, particle size,
microparticles that are ultra fine, that go into the lung
and into the uvula and then your system, that's how you
deliver your nicotine to give you that relaxing little buzz
that you catch from that, and so the problems that arise
from that are those microparticles, and one of the chemicals
most, that we think ...
And then, what the American Lung Association says
is that that's the thing that, may become a cancer risk.
We don't really know that yet for sure, 100% certainty,
but we have a pretty dang good idea it's going to lead
down that path, but the aldehydes that break down,
so think of formaldehyde and embalming fluids.
- So, toxic substances.
- Very toxic, it's not good for the body, so I mean it's ...
You know, I mean, if you ever did the dissection in
seventh grade with the frogs ...
- Right, right.
- You're putting that into your lungs, and that's something
that, you know, I think is a terribly dangerous and ...
- Directly into the lung, not just ...
- Yeah, lung, right into the bloodstream, so I think that's
why, also, for a lot of people, it's more attractive than
cigarettes, because it's a little bit cooler, and it ...
You know, they can ...
And it refers to temperature-wise, so it's a little bit
more comfortable, so as a result of that, I think they
can inhale deeper, and that's one of the problems
when we go to the addiction aspects of it, I mean,
it's nicotine, and they do contain more nicotine than
cigarettes, and so you can hold it in longer because
the temperature is cooler, it's more, I guess,
comfortable, I'm not sure if that's really the right word.
I've never vaped, so I can't really explain that.
Nor have I smoked.
But from that standpoint, it's certainly ...
- So, the nicotine is ...
Is it the only substance that's addictive?
- Well, any, any ...
Yeah, I mean, if we go down the path of whether you're
putting CBD oil or THC in there, I mean, that's certainly
another aspect of vaping, but I mean, for the purposes
of what kids are doing these days for the most part,
that's going to be nicotine.
That's where the addiction is driven.
- Sure.
- You know, and that affects the brain, it affects learning,
I mean, you know, the ...
Nicotine's actually an interesting
chemical substance from that standpoint.
It's certainly a ...
It's a stimulant, but it also relaxes you at the same time,
so it's, I'm not sure what we're doing to the central
spinal systems ...
Is it up, is it down ...
- Yeah, yeah, yeah!
- Is it sideways?
But it's certainly something that ...
It is unique, and you know, some of the dangers of the ...
You know, for a teenage brain, too.
I mean, it's going to ruin ...
You know, even though it's a stimulant to a degree, it also
seems to have problems with memory and cognition,
so it's certainly something along with the addiction path.
You know, we want to be careful with that, when we have our
kids that are doing this, and I think it's something
to reach out to them and say, "Hey, it can affect you."
And, you know, if you're looking to a pathway to get kids
to quit, I mean, it's something that ...
You know, teenagers want to be independent.
The last thing on Earth they want to do is be ...
You know, they don't want to listen to you,
they don't to want to ...
And that's normal, we were there, I was as bad as they got.
- Yeah. - And, so I can tell you that.
Just ask my parents, I mean ...
But, from that standpoint, you know, it's important
to recognize that they're becoming adults themselves
and so, basically, they use this way to spin it as,
"Well, do you really want to become dependent on something
"that has nicotine?"
I mean, all of a sudden, you're feeling anxious and unwell,
and you feel like you have to go to that vape
to feel a little better.
I mean, do you really want to rely on that in a timely
manner or you're trying to sit through your class
and focus on your studies, and all of a sudden,
"Gosh, I really could use a vape right now."
- Right.
- It just doesn't make a lot of sense.
- Sure.
So, typically, vaping is with CBD oil, is that ...
- Well, you can.
CBD, I mean, is ...
You know, you can vape it, you can have gummies,
you can do oils ...
- Right.
- So, I mean ...
- But that is the primary fluid that's used with vaping,
or is there another ...
- Well, I think the primary fluid would be, probably,
nicotine-containing products and flavorings.
And a lot of things with, you know, the e-cigarettes
or one popular brand would be JUUL.
I mean, it's the flavorings that get the kids hooked,
so I mean, they've got bubblegum, strawberry, berry,
cotton candy, unicorn puke, I mean, they've got, just ...
I'm not kidding, that's a real flavor.
And so, it's one of these things that, you know ...
- I think that's what attracts them to it, with this
nicotine that keeps them coming back, isn't it?
- It does, and it's, you know, it's just like the rat
going for the pellets, you know?
We all saw that study back in the '50s, and so
it's one of those things where ...
- Yeah, I'm afraid even that when they ban the flavors,
which they're trying to do in a lot of areas, which
probably just drives it to the black market,
but I'm afraid that the ones that are already on it
are still going to continue because the nicotine is going
to be what they see.
- Well, it's the driving force, and you know, they have
different nicotine strengths and cartridges, and I think
that's the danger that you run, is because it ...
- Nicotine is on the layer of substances that'll get you
addicted pretty high, I ...
- Oh, yeah.
- You just told me that the other, and I was like,
I was amazed at the level it ...
- Yeah, there were a group of scientists in the UK
that did a study a couple years back, and they wanted to
try and quantify the most addictive substances, and out
of five, nicotine came in at number five, and then it
was barbiturates or sleeping medications ...
- Yeah, it's a pretty heavy hitter ...
- Oh, yeah.
And then it was alcohol, cocaine, and then heroin,
so I mean, you know, all of these things,
not good things to take, so you got number five right
there, and trying to quit, there's been some studies
that say it's actually harder to quit than heroin.
I'm not going to tell somebody to take up smack, but it's
certainly something that, I mean, it's a challenge to quit,
and we use pharmaceuticals to help you to do that because,
in many cases, it's just hard to cold turkey it.
- Sure, sure.
- So, let's just take in the pros and cons here.
So, let's say you are a cigarette smoker,
and you're an adult.
- Yep.
- Is it better to jump down to the e-cigarette?
- I would say, I mean, if we had to pick our poison,
I would say yes, it's a safer alternative to smoking.
- But there's other alternatives that you'd prefer to try.
- But I would ...
Yeah, I would think we would probably try and consider it
FDA approved, you know, things to try and help you to
challenge yourself to quit.
And again, it's not an easy thing to do, but you know,
when e-cigarettes did come out ...
I'll touch back on its history.
I mean, the thought process was it was going to be a
step-down process from cigarettes to vaping to quitting,
and unfortunately, they keep putting nicotine in there,
and actually, some new studies are actually suggesting
that it may ...
In teenagers, may make them prone to smoking more and more
vigorously in the future, so it's kind of an alarming trend,
so it's something that I think that, realistically,
may be was well-intended, the unintended consequences are
it probably just fuels more addiction.
- Yeah, and you know, and the cigarette use was going down
among children, and now, vaping is ...
- Vaping is coming up, but actually, after 2017,
there was a slight dip again, so, which was encouraging,
but it's still raging.
I mean, you're talking about 3.6 million kids, you know,
from 2011 to 2015, you're talking a 900% increase.
- Wow. - Yeah.
- That is not small, I mean,
wouldn't we all like a 900% raise?
(laughs)
I mean, that would be nice, but from that standpoint,
it's certainly something that we
have to deal with as adults and kids.
- Sure.
- And I think we should mention, just recently,
that the death, that they feel are strongly associated.
There were six of them, and I think, just on the news
this morning in Minnesota, they mentioned ...
I thought it was in the teens
that they associated deaths with vaping.
I don't know how strongly it's correlated, or if they say
for sure, but it is the flavored vapes that they're
pointing at, it's like ...
- I thought that was just for, like,
black market-type stuff, that ...
- Well, I don't know that they're necessarily even
black market, I think, really, the deaths, the six that
I know of for sure, have all been linked to THC,
so, and, it seems like THC, which is basically you create an
oil that goes into the pens, much like the nicotine or
the e-juice, and the THC is stabilized with vitamin E,
and so something either between the oily plant
of the THC extract is ...
- Can you explain what THC is?
- It's basically marijuana.
- Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask.
(laughs)
- So, it's the component that gets you high, so it's
something that, you know, that's ...
- That's what they're adding to it, then.
- And that's what we want to avoid, but ...
- That's added with the flavor?
- No, it's not even added with the flavor.
It's just its own little ...
You just put your drops into your vaping chamber,
and then, basically, you turn the switch onto the desired
temperature, and then they inhale,
and then what happens in these ...
What they believe with these pens,
at least what's theorized, and it's not understood,
so we want to be very clear on that, is that we don't
fully understand the mechanism that may be causing,
but they think with the oils that are being absorbed into
the lungs, it's blocking that tissue from getting life,
giving oxygen, and these people ...
I mean, it's very tragic, very sad,
and unfortunately, very quick.
And basically, you know, with the vaping deaths,
I think a lot of it, again, is probably ...
We're going to find that it was THC in the oils,
and so we don't fully understand, but we think, again,
there's probably some sort of imminent danger there,
but a ton more research needs to occur.
- Yeah, really a lot of unknowns here, isn't there?
- Too many to be clear and concise.
- And my belief system is that they're going to be bad
unknowns, you know, I mean it's very unlikely ...
- Bob, that's exactly it.
And I think the thing that we have to take away is, again,
as I stated earlier, the only good thing for your lungs is
air, and so whether you're using something that contains
nicotine, something that contains THC, or something that
contains CBD, which is also another oily substance,
you know, the jury's still out.
I think we have a lot more ...
We're probably about 20 years behind really, truly,
knowing what's going to happen with e-cigarettes,
and what that future's going to bring for us and the people
that are starting to vape today, and what it's going to be
like tomorrow and down the road, so we have to be
very, very careful with that, but I think the
American Lung Association and a variety of other,
you know, the FDA ...
We're going to be looking at it much more closely
to ensure, hopefully, the safety of youth and people
that do choose to make that decision for their lives.
- Sure, I ...
I mean, again, it seems like we've opened up a can of worms
here, basically, and ...
- Right. - Oh, very much so.
It's not easy, it's basically, it's kind of like the great
spaghetti incident, I mean, you got the ...
There's just things everywhere, and I think we just simply
don't know enough to make an accurate portrayal.
I mean, I would say that it's still something that you
shouldn't do, and it's ...
But if you choose it,
I think it's better than cigarette smoke.
- Sure, yep, that's ...
I think that's the overall line to be stated today, so ...
All right, did you want to
mention popcorn lung before we ...
- Well, I know there was some research
and a correlation with ...
There can be some damage
to your lungs that's irreversible from ...
And they feel it is from, or could be from vaping
or strongly associated ...
- They think it's ...
Yeah, it's associated with the vaping, more particularly
with the flavors, so, and again,
they had these flavoring agents.
Many of them, and many are being banned, but they
have these diacetate in there.
It's a chemical that, I think, you can kind of blend into
anything, and it gives kind of that sweet aromatic flavor,
and basically, that's one of the problems with vaping,
is, you know, the ...
Again, as stated, the kids liked the flavors,
and that's what kind of ...
Yeah, they think, "Oh, hey, it's cotton candy!"
So, why not take a little hit of cotton candy,
fully not understanding that, you know, and actually,
there was an interesting study that showed about
from kids 15 to 24 that vape, 2/3 of the people
did not think that there was nicotine in them.
- Oh, really?
- So, that's kind of an astounding stat.
- Oh, that is amazing.
- So, I mean, you know, and again, it's keeping you
coming back for more, not because of the great flavor,
but, you know, you get that relaxing feeling when you hit
the nicotine, and all of a sudden, eventually,
it dwindles after a couple hours, and we're back at it,
and we're back at it, and set a vicious cycle.
- About the popcorn lung, what's the reference there?
- So, popcorn lung, back when there was a factory,
and basically, what happened is they were making the buttery
flavoring for popcorn and found that several of these
employees got very, very ill and it caused, basically,
irreparable lung damage.
Starting out appearing like asthma, and so treated, maybe,
as asthma, but maybe as they further went down to work
and kept getting more and more repeated exposure,
they found that it actually caused much more severe
damage to the small tissues in the lung, and ultimately,
some serious problems arose.
- So this doesn't have anything to do.
Because I remember there's been warnings about using
microwaved popcorn, that you shouldn't breathe in the ...
- Right. - Yep.
And that's the same warning.
- That's the same warning.
- It's the same warning that happened with that.
- But that's the same chemical
that's found in the flavored vapes?
- Yep, diacetates.
- Okay. - And so those are the
things that are banned, and many ...
In the UK, they are completely banned, so if you're going
over to London, I mean, I guess it's a safer place to buy
vapes at this point, but for, I mean, realistically
speaking, it's still something that, even with their
using vegetable oils, propylene glycol ...
I mean, you're using other things that are breaking down
in the lungs that are not good.
So, popcorn lung is certainly
something that's going to be a problem.
COPD is certainly a problem, the nicotine can cause
cardiovascular effects.
So is blood pressure, raising your heart rate because
it's a stimulant, so there's lots of things that we have
to be aware of and ...
- Lot of bad issues there.
- Yeah, there's really nothing good that we're going to be
able to say, "Go out and vape, kid."
It's not the lesson we want to portray.
It's something that you're going to become addicted to.
For the short-term gains that you're going to get,
it's going to cause far more long-term problems,
and it's just simply not worth it.
- Yeah.
- I guess just say no.
- There you go, all right.
A little reference to Nancy Reagan there, so ...
- There you go.
- All right, thanks, everybody, for watching, and thanks
again to Chris for ...
- Yes.
- What a fantastic job.
Bravo, bravo.
- Thank you.
(upbeat outro)