SHARMINI PERIES: Welcome to this edition of the Larry Wilkerson Report on the Real News
Network. I'm Sharmini Peries coming to you from Baltimore.
As the civil war continues in Syria, solutions to end the conflict and the human suffering
caused by it are preoccupying many of us. In that regard, Democratic congresswoman from
Hawaii Tulsi Gabbard recently introduced a bill aimed at prohibiting arms and funding
from being sent to groups seeking to overthrow Syrian president Bashar al-Assad. The bill
prohibits the use of U.S. funds for the provision of assistance to Syrian opposition groups
and individuals. Here is Congresswoman Tulsi in an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN,
critiquing U.S. foreign policy in Syria.
WOLF BLITZER: Why do you say the U.S. effort to get rid of Bashar al-Assad's regime is
counterproductive and illegal?
TULSI GABBARD: Well, first of all, there's not been a vote in Congress to authorize the
use of force, to authorize a war to overthrow a sovereign government. For as long as I've
been there that hasn't happened. It didn't happen before I got there. So the American
people haven't had a choice to speak their voice to approve or disapprove such a war.
Therefore it's illegal. Secondly, it is counterproductive because right now U.S. arms are getting into
the hands of our enemy. Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra, these other groups, Islamic extremist groups
who are our sworn enemy. These are groups who attacked us on 9/11 and who supposedly
we're trying to defeat. Yet at the same time, supporting them with these arms to overthrow
the Syrian government.
PERIES: Here to discuss the congresswoman's position is Col. Lawrence Wilkerson. He's
the former chief of staff for the U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, and currently and adjunct
professor of government at the college of William and Mary. He's also a regular contributor
to the Real News Network. Larry, thank you so much for joining us today.
LARRY WILKERSON: Thanks for having me, Sharmini.
PERIES: So Larry, this must take you back to the debate over the legality of the Iraq
war. Is what the Congresswoman Tulsi arguing here, what the U.S. is doing in Syria, is
it illegal?
WILKERSON: I think so. And I'm glad to hear this debate taking place, especially in a
far more, in my view, formidable way than it did previously.
I happen to know, backtrack just for a moment, I happen to know the congresswoman fairly
well from my almost hour-long conversation with her in her office about the Iran-EU-Germany
Permanent 5 Iran deal, the JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. I found the
congresswoman to be deliberate, well-versed in what we were talking about, in some ways
more circumspect even than the party there to discuss it with her. And I found her to
be very serious and very concentrated on her responsibility towards dealing with that agreement
in the way she felt was best for the American people and ultimately for the world.
So I have great respect for her ability, not just because she's an Iraq war veteran, but
also because I found in her what I did not find in clearly a majority of the rest of
the Congress, of either Republican or Democratic ilk. And that is, I found a sane and sober
voice. I found a voice interested in national security in a serious way, and a voice that
was well-informed and itself spoke well about national security issues.
So I am all for this legislation that she and her Republican counterpart have introduced,
for the reasons you insinuated, and the reason that I know a lot of thought went into the
legislation from the Hawaiian side, if not the other.
PERIES: So what she's basically saying is by assisting the opposition fight al-Assad,
we are also helping ISIS. What does she mean by that, and how is that taking place?
WILKERSON: First of all, it's very difficult to define the "opposition", whether you're
talking the Syrian Free Army, or you're talking the Al Nusra Front, or you're talking the
more media-savvy and more mentioned ISIS-Daesh-ISIL, or any of the other elements that are opposed
to Assad in Syria. And I put in that collection even the new Kurdish groups, the Turkmen and
others. Turkmen, of course, having been the subject of much discussion between Moscow
and Ankara recently, because Erdogan's ostensible reason for shooting down the Russian aircraft
was to send them a message that they'd better quit bombing Turkmen.
So this is a very convoluted situation, and I think this legislation rightfully addresses
this. John Brennan notwithstanding, and he scares me, frankly, there is nobody to support
in Syria of consequence. And on top of that when you send arms in, they go to anybody
and everybody. And like we have seen so many times in the past, most recently and vividly
in Afghanistan with our support for the mujaheddin there, those arms inevitably wind up being
turned against us in whatever consequence might result. This is not good, and it shouldn't
be happening, even though I understand the pressures to make it happen. The people making
those arms. Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Smith and Wesson, indeed, the NRA itself get all
kinds of cash out of selling them to people. And so that's an incentive for doing this,
too.
But it needs to stop. We need to quit, the Saudis need to quit, the Qataris need to quit,
the Emirates need to quit funding this horrible civil war in Syria.
PERIES: Now Larry, one of the positions that she argues is that we should learn from our
past. This strategy didn't work in Afghanistan, didn't work in Iraq, didn't work in Libya,
and isn't going to work in Syria. Your thoughts on that?
WILKERSON: I think what I just said. I think she's absolutely right about that. It's not
going to work. The only solution that I can see to the problems in Syria, and they are
daunting, is political talk between the parties most interested in a solution, and that includes
Iran. It includes Russia. It includes Saudi Arabia and the GCC in general. It includes
Turkey. And of course it includes Washington. And maybe even it includes Beijing. And maybe
even Delhi. And we need to talk about this in terms of how do we defeat ISIS, and how
do we essentially bring some kind of stability back to Syria? And by golly, if that includes
leaving Bashar al-Assad in charge for whatever period of time is acceptable to that community,
and ultimately to Bashar al-Assad, after all the legitimate government of Syria, has to
be accepted. And we have to deal with that.
We have to deal with that. Because bringing stability back to Syria and stopping the killing
is our first motivation, our first purpose, and getting rid of ISIS is right there with
it.
PERIES: And Larry, one point where I find that the congresswoman doesn't go far enough
in terms of explaining herself is even if this is assistance to the Syrian opposition
and the fight against the IS that it is capsuled under was authorized by Congress and Senate,
it is still internationally, according to international law, illegal, what the U.S.
is doing in Syria.
WILKERSON: I don't think the United States has really cared about international law for
a long time now. I think our care, if that's the right word for it in essence, is opportunistic.
And if it's convenient for us, we do care. But basically I think we have a particular
disdain for international law, even though much of that law we helped build since 1945.
Having said that, I do think that this legislation and the conception of it is right in the two
respects, that one, the authorization for the use of military force with response to--in
regard to 9/11 is still in effect for fighting terrorists with a global reach, a global capability,
and an attempt to attack the United States. But I don't think it applies to overthrowing
legitimate governments in other countries. I think that's the sense of this legislation.
I think you can fight ISIS, and I think you can show a decent respect of the opinions
of mankind, including international law, at the same time without trying to overthrow
the legitimate government of Syria and funding and fueling those people who are at that purpose.
PERIES: All right. Larry, we'll be watching this bill taking its course, and I hope you
join us again very soon.
WILKERSON: Thank you Sharmini. I don't think this bill has a prayer of passing. I hope
I'm wrong. But I think [inaud.] it doesn't because of people in my party.
PERIES: All right. Larry, thank you so much for joining us.
WILKERSON: Take care.
PERIES: And thank you for joining us on the Real News Network.