[MARYANA] Is that true you met the Kray brothers?
I met Reg.
I used to speak to him every week
for half an hour
and he used to send me flowers and little gifts.
And he actually proposed to me twice.
[MARYANA] What did you tell him?
I said no, I didn't think it was a very good idea
for either of us.
I grew up in the East End of London.
I had a very happy childhood.
We were not very rich
as was most of the people in the East End.
But then that was the norm
for where we grew up in those days.
[MARYANA] Would you say there was a lot of crime going on?
There was, obviously when I was young
I didn't really take any notice
but I know my parents used to say about
"Oh they're always selling knocked off stuff."
And it wasn't until I met my then-to-be first husband,
that I actually ever got involved in crime.
[MARYANA] Can you tell me how did you meet your first husband?
Mickey was an armed robber and he, I suppose,
like a lot of the youngsters in the East End,
they wanted better.
And him and three of his friends did an armed robbery
on a security van and they all got caught
and they all went to prison for eight years.
This was prior to me meeting him.
I met him when he came home
and I saw my cousin in the market with her husband
and they said to me, "What are you doing Saturday?"
And I said, "I'm not doing anything."
So they said, "Well, come to this party.
"We're doing a party for this guy, Mickey
that's just come outta prison."
And I didn't wanna go for some reason,
I think because of all the old films and whatever,
in those days, all the crooks were the ugly ones
and all the so-called goodies, I suppose,
the heroes were all the good looking ones.
And I just imagined that this guy was gonna be really ugly.
And do I really wanna go?
And my cousin went, "Oh please, it's only just one night.
You haven't gotta see him again."
But he's the only one that's on his own,
where he's been in prison so long.
And when we met each other
we were both pleasantly surprised.
And that was it.
He was very charismatic.
And when my family all met him, he won them over.
And to me, he was this most gorgeous, handsome person.
And I was just totally besotted by him.
[MARYANA] So what kind of crimes would he commit?
Him and his friends,
they used to rob banks, security vans, post offices.
He would sit and plot his jobs with his friends.
And he'd say to me, "I'm going to work on Friday,"
which meant he would be doing an armed robbery.
And for some reason,
they all used to come to my house to sit and plot.
And I used to make them sandwiches and cups of tea
while they were discussing what they were gonna do.
He didn't hide anything from me and my parents were hoping
that he was going to get a job and go to work
but that wasn't on his agenda.
And he said, "No, I want the good things in life.
And people like me, the only way we can get it
is by being robbers."
[MARYANA] So what ended up happening to Mickey?
It was a Saturday morning
and it was very near to Christmas
and he said, "I'm not gonna put any bullets in my gun."
He got his cartridges. He emptied everything out.
He just put wadding in
and he just sealed the cartridges.
And he said, "If I have to fire my gun,
all I'm gonna shoot out is a load of fluff.
So I couldn't hurt anybody, but the noise,
there'll still be the effect of the noise."
And he never came back that day.
And I was out looking for him
and six o'clock the next morning,
Terry, Mickey's brother, phoned.
And he said to me, "Mickey's been arrested.
You've gotta get here straight away."
And as we walked in, Terry opened the door.
And as I looked, my mum and all Mickey's family
were standing in the lounge.
And I said, "Oh, Mum, what're you doing here?"
And with that, Terry held my shoulders.
And he said, "Mickey's dead."
And I was handed a brandy and they said "Drink this, Linda"
and I drunk it.
And I said, "What happened?"
And Terry said, "Well, you know he did a robbery yesterday,
apparently he got shot dead.
That's all I know.
And we've gotta go to the mortuary to identify him."
And they lifted the cover back.
And while they were doing that, this policeman went,
"We're really sorry it happened.
I'm afraid your husband left us no choice.
He said, it's me or you."
So I said, "What do you mean?"
So he said, well, your husband faced him
and said, "It's me or you."
So I said, "You're telling me
My husband faced a policeman with a gun and said,
It's me or you?"
So he said, "Yes."
I said "You're lying."
And the second autopsy was done.
I was right, he was shot through the back.
And the bullet came out the front.
And from then on the police and I locked horns.
[MARYANA] What was your life like after Mickey’s death?
Well, I think when Mickey died,
it sounds strange and I don't know, I've always said
that when I was told that he was shot
something happened to my brain,
because I decided I've gotta avenge my husband.
Because they've done this to him.
So I decided I would become a bank robber
and I would take over from what he did.
And I became the boss of the gang.
[MARYANA] What kind of crimes were you involved in?
Armed robberies, banks, post offices.
Exactly the same as him. And we were very successful.
[MARYANA] How did it feel to be a female gangster?
Did male gangsters treat you differently?
I think they did.
They all respected me
and I actually, gradually did become the boss
and everything was put by me.
Should we do this? Should we do that?
I met loads and loads of women that were in prison
and done lots of different crimes.
But I never ever met another girl that did armed robberies.
It used to be funny
because when we used to share everything out,
we'd share it out equally.
Whether there was three of us, four of us, whatever.
And they all used to go,
"Oh no, Linda, you're a girl, we have to give you extra."
And they all used to give me extra off of theirs.
And I used to go, "But why are you doing that?
We've all done the same thing."
And they went, "Oh, no, no, no.
Because we feel you should get the extra."
And it was sort of, it was weird,
that they all did that to me.
[MARYANA] Is that true you met the Kray brothers?
I met Reg.
I used to speak to him every week for half an hour.
And he used to send me flowers and little gifts.
And he actually proposed to me twice.
[MARYANA] What did you tell him?
I said no, I didn't think it was a very good idea
for either of us.
And he said, "No, I guess not."
But I think we would've got on well.
Inevitably in the end you do caught,
because the odds go against you as time goes on.
And I was arrested and I got seven years for armed robbery.
Which was, I had the biggest sentence in Holloway Prison.
[MARYANA] So after your first sentence, what happened after that?
I was home 18 months.
I'd started a legitimate business with my sister
and I'd turned my back on crime.
And then I was
with my then boyfriend.
He was out on a day's home leave
and I picked him up.
We went to my home and as we walked in my house
the door got kicked in and a gunman ran in
and he was shot dead.
And when they found out who I was
they then charged me with the murder.
[MARYANA] And how much did you get for that?
I was charged with gangland murder.
Because I wouldn't say I committed the crime,
I ended up doing 18 years.
[MARYANA] What was the prison life like that second time?
Some prisons were really hard.
There's a lot of bullying.
There's a lot of stealing off each other.
It's like a a world in miniature.
I suppose in one way, I was lucky
because when I went to prison the first time,
as were the men who went to prison,
the bank robbers were looked on as the hierarchy,
that everyone in the prison looked up to.
I suppose I actually got that same
from when I went into prison the first time.
And it was sort of like, "Oh wow, she's the armed robber.
"She's the..." and it did good for me, if that makes sense.
That the girls all respected me.
And when I went back the second time,
I met a lot of the same girls that I knew.
And I mean, I was lucky, I sailed through prison
and I never got bullied, I never got picked on.
I always got treated with the utmost respect
from all the girls.
So I suppose in that way, I was quite lucky.
[MARYANA] You have served with some of the most notorious female criminals.
Who did you meet in prison?
I met Myra Hindley.
She was doing the washing in the laundry
and I walked in with mine
and she was singing, taking washing out the machine.
And I just thought, how dare you sing
when you did what you did?
And I just walked up and went slap round her face
and she stood up and went like this.
And went, "I could get you sent back to Holloway for that."
And I went, "Holloway doesn't hold any fears for me."
And I sort of just put my washing down and walked out
and I thought, oh, bloody hell.
Well, I don't really want to go back to Holloway.
But she never did report me.
[MARYANA] Is that true that when you were getting out she gave you a present?
Oh, she gave me a kaftan and a dressing gown,
not a dressing gown, a cardigan.
[MARYANA] Why do you think she gave you a present?
Because I had to do the job of cutting her hair.
Well not cutting it, colouring it.
And when she was in Highpoint, they said
"Do you know anyone in here?"
And she looked at the list of names.
And she said, "The only person I know is Linda."
So they said, "Well, she'll have to come
and do your hair for you."
And they came and saw me
and said to me to colour Myra's hair.
And I said, "Well, I don't really want to."
And it was, "Well look, Linda, you wanna go home?"
So I said, "Yeah, I do wanna go home."
So they went, "Well, the governor said
he's expecting you to do her hair."
[MARYANA] Would you say she was a nice person?
She was horrible. She was awful.
Really, really horrible, cold and hard and nasty.
She had nothing nice at all about her.
Towards the end of my sentence.
And I started getting home leaves.
I then met my third husband
and I got engaged in the prison
and he went to my parole hearing
and said, "I wanna marry her."
He was an honest person. They checked him all out.
And I think that is the main reason
that I actually got released, in the end.
And I married George a year after I came out prison.
Who unfortunately died four and a half years ago.
He died of cancer.
[MARYANA] They quite famously call you 'Black Widow'.
Yes. I don't take myself seriously.
And I think, okay, I'm the Black Widow.
You wanna call me the Black Widow.
Do I care?
It doesn't matter.
George. They said,
"Oh, how do you feel about marrying the Black Widow?"
He went, "I feel honoured that she's accepted me."
And it was when he was dying.
He said to me, "You've always said you wanted to write."
He said, "And everyone else has written about you.
Do your life story and put the story right."
So I said, "Yeah, I will."
And I started writing and I wrote
The Black Widow, my life story.
I look back now and don't recognise that person.
I really don't.
And it is so alien to me,
that I sort of am shocked at myself,
to think that I actually was that person
and did do the things I did.
And there is a deep regret on that.
[MARYANA] If you could say one thing to your younger self, what would that be?
Don't go to that party.
And then what would I have been?
Hopefully, a very different life.
But then I wouldn't have had my two children
and I love them dearly.
And crime is well and truly left behind.
It was a long, long time ago.
It doesn't pay.
There's nothing good about going to prison.
Nothing. It wastes your life.
And if they say, does crime pay?
Maybe for 5%, that means 95% have wasted their lives
and their time and it's very sad.