German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
We catch-up with you on your first Africa trip since you came into office.
You started in Senegal.
You went on to Niger.
Now we’re here in South Africa.
Your predecessor, Angela Merkel put a focus on Africa.
It’s important for Europe.
How does it feel like to touch down here for the first time as German chancellor?
Africa is the continent next to Europe and so it is of essence that we work intensely
to have very good relations with all the states in Africa, and also it is important that we
develop our relations with all the democratic states on the globe.
Democracy, the rule of law, questions that are important for us are not just something
that is linked with the so-called western countries.
It's also very important if we look at all the countries in the world.
So South Africa is a democracy, Senegal, Niger, and this is why I visited them and why I think
it is important that we continue to work together, saying that the world has a good future if
we cooperate, if we understand that there will be a lot of very relevant states in the
future and the fifties of this century, and that we should now make it feasible that there
is a good cooperation, that we can create a multilateral world.
The shadow of the Ukraine conflict looms large here.
This is Europe being very much busy with itself.
There's a war in Europe and, at the same time, here, many countries, particularly those that
you visited, are set to feel the brunt of the effects.
There's a looming hunger crisis, fuel shortages, fertilizer shortages.
What responsibility does Germany feel to save countries that have nothing to do with this
conflict from the effects?
First, Russia invaded Ukraine, started a brutal war against a neighbor country, and so it
is important that we stick together to give the Ukraine the chance to defend itself, its
integrity, its sovereignty.
This is also important for peace on the globe.
We should agree that there should never again be a successful attempt to change borders
with force, and this is what Russia is trying to do, and this is why we cannot accept this.
And this is why so many countries are supporting Ukraine with financial means, with weapons
also, and we developed a sanctions regime against Russia to convince the Russian leadership
that they should go away from the war, that they should start negotiations with the Ukraine
and that they withdraw their troops from Ukraine territory where they invaded the country.
And, on the other hand, it is obvious that a lot of countries are suffering from this
war and from the Russian aggression, and this is why we are very decided that we will help
the countries that are suffering.
This is why we started to cooperate in fighting against all the consequences of having not
enough food, supporting the countries with their own economic difficulties they have,
and this is why we also speak about how we can work together in this very difficult crisis.
But the best thing to do is ending the war, and if Russia stopped its aggression and would
be ready for peace, this would be the best for the whole globe.
What concrete assistance can countries like, for instance, Sudan, Somalia, Niger expect?
We are working on supporting the World Food Programme and we are starting together an
initiative against the shortages that are coming up now, and we will work together with
the countries on the global level, together with the United Nations, and this is what
we are trying to convince all other countries that have the means to do so, to do together
with us.
Your trade Minister, Robert Habeck, also spoke about US-EU initiative to lower fuel prices
worldwide.
Can you flesh that out a bit?
We will have a very difficult situation if we look at fuel prices.
Obviously this will be not feasible to subsidize them down, and even not on a global level.
But it is necessary that we start to increase the supply with gas, with fuel, with all the
things to make it feasible for the countries to pay for their bill.
So how will you get fuel shortages off the table, reduce prices?
We are now discussing with all these countries that are exploring oil and gas and trying
to convince them to increase their capacities, so this would help the world market.
Now it's three months to the day today that Russia invaded Ukraine.
You're one of the very few world leaders who actually still have a direct line to Vladimir
Putin.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Ukraine's president, at the World Economic Forum spoke of Putin’s
intention to cause maximum damage, the maximum loss of lives.
Many people are wondering whether Putin has lost touch with reality.
What is your impression when you speak to him?
This is a brutal aggression, a very brutal war, and it is really an imperialistic approach.
He tries to conquer parts of the territory of his neighbor country, and this is what
we will never accept, and this is why it is necessary that we support the Ukraine, as
I've already mentioned, and that we, on the other hand, talk directly to Putin, saying
him that he should stop the war and that the activity he is starting there, the war, will
never have a good outcome for his own country.
We should not forget that the sanctions, for instance, are having a very heavy impact on
the Russian economy today, but also in the future.
They will go back in their opportunities of economic development for decades, they will
suffer and they are suffering, and for getting out of this he has to stop the war.
The United Nations says for the first time there's some 100 million people fleeing conflict
on the move around the globe, Germany is negotiating also with many countries to take illegal,
so-called ‘illegal migration’ migrants back.
What will Germany do?
What will you do as G7-Presidency, to open avenues for legal migration?
We have to be aware that there are a lot of people that are in a very desperate situation,
that are fleeing from the places they lived because of war, because of a lot of other
reasons, and so we have a global responsibility to support the refugees where they are, and
this is what we never should forget, that there is a responsibility not just starting.
For instance, refugees are coming to the western countries and trying to live there.
We also have to do a lot at places where they live.
In most cases, they just fled to the neighbor country and this neighbor country needs assistance
for being able to cope with the situation.
On the other hand, it is obvious that there will be the need for legal ways of migration,
for instance to Europe, and that we have to find a way to cooperate with the countries
where the people are looking for the chances to start a better life in European countries
and other countries of the world.
Doing this is then also an answer to fight against illegal migration, because this also
needs cooperation between the countries, making it feasible that people go back to the country
of origin if they cannot stay in the country they wanted to go.
I just want to talk about the Sahel region, because it's a great source of instability
that leads to migration as well.
How concerned are you that you might be supporting the wrong side by extending one of the mandates
in Mali after the coup?
We are supporting the United Nations with their activity in Sahel especially in Mali
with this so-called MINUSMA mandate and this is something that is good for stabilization
in the region.
But we also state very clear that we will never accept a situation where there will
be a fight with the support of Russian soldiers in Mali against the people, so it's necessary
that they are going back to the past of a democratic perspective.
You speak of a special responsibility that you feel for contributing to the future being
a multi-polar world.
How does Germany's, Europe's colonial past shape the way you want to integrate particularly
African countries?
Germany but all countries with a colonial past have to be very honest and admitting
that this past is part of their history and that they have responsibility for better relations
with the countries, for instance in Africa.
And doing this is also the basis for a good relationship in the future.
And my view is that the world will have a lot of very influential countries in the next
decades that are not just Russia, China, United States and Europe, for instance.
There will be also a lot of other countries and this is one of the reasons why I invited
Indonesia and India, Senegal and South Africa or Argentina to participate in our G7 meeting
in Germany this year this summer, because it's a starting point for understanding the
world is something that we have responsibility together for and this is the basis for a multilateral
world where we not just see a lot of different influential countries, but countries that
cooperate for a better future.
What role does Africa play in this?
Are you more up against China or Russia here with that vision?
Africa is a continent with a lot of countries and states that will have a future that is
better than today, that will have a lot of people living there, and so it is necessary
that we do all which is feasible to make it happen that this will be a good future, and
cooperation, economic cooperation, support in the development, is the basis for this.
What most surprised you on this trip?
It was very good to discuss with the leaders and understanding that they have a very similar
view to the world and that they are also sharing the willingness of cooperation, and this is
one of the outcomes of this trip to three countries.
Finally, just a few kilometers from where we are sitting right now, Nelson Mandela was
elected the first democratically elected president of South Africa.
If you could meet him today, what would you tell him or ask him?
He was really a very great leader and working intensely for freedom and democracy, and I
think there is not a question I should have asked him, but the question all asked him
really is: How did you make it to stay in that situation in the jail for that long time
and keeping to be a very democratic leader?
It is really a great man.
Olaf Scholz, Chancellor of Germany, on his first trip to Africa.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.