- Answering your questions about narration.
(relaxing music)
Welcome to the Simply Charlotte Mason podcast.
I'm Sonya Shafer, and today my friend
and coworker, Laura Pitney, is here.
We're going to discuss a question
that we received about narration.
So here's what it said.
"With more than one child in the phase
"of doing oral narration,
"how do I have them each do a narration
"on what we read together without
"them just copying the child that goes first?
"At what point do you transition
"into written narration and how does that work?"
So we got several questions here to discuss.
- For sure.
- Why don't we start by backing up,
and for anyone who's watching
that might not know what narration is,
let's talk about what narration is.
- That'd be a good place to start.
- All right.
Narration is basically telling back in your own words
what you just heard or read.
It's a much higher thinking level
than true/false, multiple choice, fill-in-the-blank,
and it's like we're asking them to do many things.
Pay full attention, take it all in,
remember it, put it in the right sequence,
mix it with ideas already in their heads,
form it into coherent sentences,
and then give it back to you.
- Sure.
- So there's a reason, I guess,
Charlotte called it oral composition.
- Yeah, and I think that's a huge thing to remember
about why you're doing narration is,
it's one of the stepping stones to composition.
I think realizing that, by doing narration,
it becomes their own possession,
and that's what we want for our children
and that's why we do it.
- Yes, yes.
It's a tool that they can use their entire lives, really,
to help them learn anything.
- I remember, years ago, it was so interesting,
the fact that oftentimes what we remember is
that first narration that we told.
It's not actually the real thing, per se,
but it's the narration, the words that we told back.
And I thought about the times when
my husband and I would talk about sermons, you know?
We would discuss it, and then, years later,
I would remember that discussion
more than the original content, and so--
- Yes, the actual delivery of the sermon.
You remember what you said about it.
- So in my own life I've seen the importance
of that narration.
So to teach our children and to do it correctly
with them is lifelong for them.
- Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so, how does does this mama do it
with all these children in the oral narration phase
and not just copying the first one?
In my mind, there are many ways
you can approach an oral narration with several children.
The first one, which she doesn't wanna do very often,
is to line 'em up, youngest to oldest,
and say, okay, youngest one go first, and now the next one.
You could have them each do the whole narration again,
but I think that would be a bit redundant,
and that's where she's coming into these problems.
So another way to approach it would be have the youngest one
give the narration and then just go down the line,
do you have anything to add, do you have anything to add?
But we don't do this one very often.
(laughing)
- They say, "Nope we don't have anything else to add."
- Oh, he did a great job, yeah!
We don't need to add anything.
So don't use that one very often,
but you could also do, okay, you start,
and when you get into it a little bit then say,
"Okay, hold it there.
"Who do you want to pick it up from there?"
And, oh, you want Joey to do it, okay,
then Joey picks it up from there
and then, okay, hold it.
Who goes next?
And so it's kind of like popcorn style
and the kids never know which section of the story
they're gonna have to narrate
so they've gotta be paying attention
to the other narrations, as well.
- Yeah, I definitely think that that works well
and I've used that in my home.
Leading up to that, as far as training them,
I have given them a heads up to say, okay,
Chloe, you're gonna be the one to narrate first
so give your full attention because she's younger,
six, seven, eight, you know, younger years,
to build her up for success,
I have given her a heads up that she will be
the first one to narrate or she'll be the one doing
this next section that we're reading.
We have weaned away from that
but to build up their confidence and that habit
of, like you said, listening, processing,
putting it in the correct order, telling it back,
I feel like that has to be mastered first, in a lotta ways,
before we can branch out to these other methods and styles.
- Yeah.
- And you know your children best, for sure,
so I've done it both ways to where
I have let my children know ahead of time,
but I've also done it that way to where, you know,
the children choose who's next.
I've done it from youngest to oldest,
all kinds of combinations.
They have grown in their ability to narrate, for sure,
using those things.
- That reminds me of another way to set them up for success,
especially if they're having trouble with the sequencing.
- [Laura] Yeah, that's hard.
- I think of it as shining a spotlight
on the different segments of the story.
So you might say, okay, at the beginning of this story
so-and-so did this.
What do you remember about that part of the story?
And get that narration, maybe from this child,
and then say, okay, next in the story this happened.
What do you remember about that?
And say which child you want to narrate that section.
So you're not asking direct questions on the content,
you're just saying, okay, let's take this section
and you tell me about it, and then this, and then this.
- Yeah.
Giving them the key words ahead of time--
- Oh, yes.
- Definitely helps.
Especially when spotlighting, almost in a different way.
So, to give each child a person, or a place, or an event,
that way it's the one that they're specifically
looking forward to hearing about.
It helps them hold that attention.
Even though a lot of other things are happening,
it's almost become a game, like the different names,
and I dunno, that has worked.
Yes, that has worked well, especially when you go back
to what you're saying, spotlighting the different events
of the chapter or the story.
- Mmhmm, nice.
And you can also do those other methods of narration
like if you have all kids in the early elementary age
and they're all doing oral narration, you could say,
"Each of you draw a picture of your favorite part
"of the story."
And then when they're done drawing, have them take turns
telling you about their pictures.
- Yeah.
You're gonna need them to tell you about their pictures
'cause you might not be able to tell what it is.
(laughing)
So, that usually works well.
- Well, and you always want it to end up orally.
You want 'em to be able to say something at the end.
Yes, that's true.
- Yeah, we've had quite the adventures in our living room
as far as when we read a chapter,
some of the stories or chapters lend itself well
to acting it out.
- Yes. - And so we were,
this past school year we were studying
early modern, so a lot of wars happened,
a lot of situations, a lot of strategic things
had to be in place for other events to happen.
And so we had lots of war acting out in our living room.
- Reenactments. - Yes.
- Historical reenactments. (laughs)
- And it wasn't okay just to do it one time
'cause everybody wanted to trade roles
and the people that they played 'cause a lot of the children
actually love being the bad guy,
you know, love being the mischievous person
that had to chop off somebody's head or something.
(laughs)
They remember that.
They're able to, you know, recall those events well.
And that's one of the goals of narration.
- Yes, yeah.
- Whatever that looks like.
- Absolutely, absolutely.
So, the other part of the question then
was transitioning into written.
When does that happen and how does that happen?
- That's a great question.
(laughing)
That's good.
So, in my home, when I know a child is getting close
to the age 10, it's on my radar.
Like, I know it's comin',
I feel like we've really tried to master the oral narration.
So, once they turn 10 or that school year they've turn 10,
we've just had to sit down and have a heart-to heart-talk
about what my expectations are,
what's going to be happening.
That way they're not frustrated with, okay, go write it.
- Yeah.
Kinda hits 'em broadside, they don't know what's happening.
- Yes, so-- - Good point.
- I give them that ownership of you're maturing,
you're getting older in your school years
and so this is one of the next things
that you're gonna get to do.
And so to just kind of 'em that pep talk
that it's gonna be okay,
you don't know how to do this yet
but we're gonna get there and this is what we're gonna do.
So, I've done that with my older ones and it has helped
not have as much lashback
or the heart of heart of, oh, this is so hard,
I don't wanna do it.
So it hasn't all happened all at once.
Like I said, we've had steps so, you know,
we're gonna do written narrations together for a while.
You're gonna tell it to me and I'm gonna write it.
And it may be when the other younger ones
are busy doing something else.
So, I think it's a matter of knowing
the end result that you want.
Let's say, transitioning, you want to eventually
have two written narrations a week.
That's what you want to require of your 10-year-old.
So, to get to them independently doing
two written narrations a week,
you're gonna have to backtrack and say, okay,
let's start with us doing one together.
Okay, and then we're gonna meet together again
and it's gonna be me writing, you know, 90% of it
and then the child does the conclusion.
- Yeah, I think that's a great way to transition in
'cause then the child's not lookin' at a blank sheet
of paper, gettin' writer's block.
- [Laura] Right.
- And let me just throw this in, too.
10 years old is when Charlotte recommended we transition.
But if you're starting narration with an older child,
you might want to start with oral first--
- [Laura] Yes, for sure.
- 'Cause the 10-years-old mark kind of assumes
that the child has become fluent in the oral part of it.
- [Laura] Right.
- So that's another thing to consider
when to make the transition.
- Right.
Knowing your child best,
knowing that you feel 100% confident
that they can do those oral narrations well,
the next natural step is to switch them over
to a few written narrations a week.
- And then, as you said, you could go ahead
and type or write what they're saying
and stop like a sentence from the end
and say, "Here, you finish it up."
That's not so overwhelming.
And then as you do that more and more,
you could stop sooner and sooner and gradually
get to where they're writing the whole thing.
- Sure.
One of my older daughters is,
she has a flare for the dramatic.
And so, to transition her over to written narration,
she would write plays.
She would write the scripts of the story that happened
and she would give the other children their assigned roles
and they would get in costume
and she was the director of that play.
- Nice. - But that was her way
of doing a written narration.
Getting the whole family to act this scene out
which lent itself well to her just writing a normal,
like a, not a script or a play.
- A narrative.
Yeah, yeah. - So, you know,
for me to give her the freedom
to express herself confidently in a different way
than maybe ultimately what I wanna get to, you know,
really helped her transition over
to not being fearful to write.
- That's a great point.
'Cause Charlotte did have her students,
they would write scenes from plays,
they would write letters, diary entries, poetry form.
So you could tailor-make that to whatever
the child's really interested in to set 'em up
for success, give 'em that boost of confidence
to begin with.
- That just made me think of another crazy thing
she did this year.
One of the stories we were reading about
was a letter that one of the Americans
had written to King George
and she had gotten distressed paper, I mean,
and she had crumpled it around the edge.
She'd gotten her feather pen out.
She had done it in script.
She even got the wax seal, folded the paper,
and did the seal just like, in her mind, she had envisioned.
- Yes. - So that was
her written narration for that.
And, you know, I go to my school desk
and I'm thinkin' what in the world,
where did this come from? (laughs)
Why do I have a seal, you know, a wax seal letter here
and it was great.
And of course that goes in our keepsake box
for the school year.
But just her creativity, and it was great.
- Along with the different styles,
the script, and the poetry, and the letters and such,
Charlotte also then had the children progress
in the types of narrations they were writing.
Eventually your goal, long-term,
is that they will be able to write a narrative,
which is tell the story, that's where it starts,
and then a descriptive where they're describing
how something looks or works,
an expository which is explaining something step-by-step,
and a persuasive narration,
which is state your opinion and support it.
- Sure.
- And those don't all happen at once.
- Thank goodness.
(laughs)
- Well the kids get practice with the narrative
in their oral narrations very easily.
But then as they get confident with transitioning
to written in those narratives,
you can start bringing in a little bit of the descriptive,
a little bit of the expository,
kinda depends, I guess, on the chapter.
- Yeah.
- And what it lends itself toward.
- I would agree, for sure.
- Yeah.
- The content that you're covering
and what's being discussed.
Jumping back just for a second,
I thought of one other thing I would love to mention.
It seems like the question that,
there was a little thread in there about,
yes, transitioning children,
but having multiple kids trying to give oral narrations
and, the comment that comes to my mind,
I know we're kinda jumpin' back,
but being organized and knowing, okay,
I need to spend time with this child getting this narration.
So my other children need to be not under foot
so that this child trying to succeed in their own narration
has my full attention.
- Yeah, it's so easy if you're not organized to say,
"Oh, we don't have time for that today.
Oh, we don't have time for that today."
And the child's left hangin'.
- You know, or just the distractions of having
multiple children in the home
and trying to get these oral narrations
directly after a reading when there's just crazy happening.
So, just, I would love to know the answer to that (laughs)
because it's hard when you do want to have your children
all narrate back to you,
and ideally you're doing it in a group setting,
but there's also times when your children do need
that one-on-one full attention from you
for them to be able to give you their oral narration.
So, I just say that as an encouragement
to figure out what works best when your children
do happen to need that one-on-one attention
for their oral narrations when there's a host
of other children around or distractions happening.
I don't have the answer for that
but I just know looking back in my homeschool,
that is a challenge.
To figure out exactly how to maneuver all the moving pieces
when, you know, five kids need to give a oral narration
directly after the history reading.
- Right.
- And the ideas that you mentioned about the popcorn game,
or going in a certain order,
or a lot of other ideas for the narration,
those are so handy to have
and I think we had talked a lot about
the "Your Questions Answered: Narration" book
that has a lot of those troubleshooting type questions
in there, to where, I have this situation, what do I do?
- Yeah. - Or I have
a high-schooler and an elementary,
how do I manage this?
So, what else would you like to mention about that?
'Cause I know I have it on my shelf and I use it.
(laughs) - Yeah.
It also has, in the "Your Questions Answered:
Narration" book, it has sample written narrations
which I think are very helpful
'cause it's like, what should I expect from this kid?
As they progress, when should I expect more
and how much more should I expect?
So it has sample narrations.
It has sample narration questions.
A lot of getting those different types of narration
like expository, and descriptive, and persuasive,
well, a lot of getting that is all in how you word
the narration question.
And so it has sample narration questions.
Oh, and another resource for that, too,
is the narration note cards.
- I love those.
This year was the first time we really used those,
like, they were my go-to.
One of the reasons I loved them so much
is I did not have the time to pre-read.
- It's a common problem.
- The bottom of my list of things to do is to pre-read.
So, I could trust those narration note cards
and they gave me the confidence to be able to direct
my children correctly.
And to have the keywords and the dates,
and be able to hand it to my older children
for the spelling.
Giving them the freedom, maybe,
to choose between question two or three
or whatever applied to them.
So, those were a life-saver for me this year,
especially having a busy schedule, busy home.
It just, that was one of the things beyond me this year
that I just couldn't do and so I definitely,
those were by my side.
- Oh, good.
I'm glad they were helpful.
That's great.
Yeah, so I think those two resources,
"Your Questions Answered: Narration" book
and the narration note cards,
are going to help many mamas with narration.
- Definitely great tools to have on the shelf, for sure.
Whether use 'em everyday or reference them
every once in a while,
they have definitely been a good resource for me.
- Excellent.
What about you?
Do you have any extra tips
that are going to help with narration?
Leave those in the comments.
Or do you have any questions
that you would like us to discuss?
Leave those in the comments, as well.
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