AINSLEY: IT HAS BEEN MORE THAN
TWO YEARS SINCE JUSTICE NEIL
GORSUCH JOINED THE NATIONS
HIGHEST COURT AND NOW HE'S OUT
WITH A BRAND NEW BOOK, A
REPUBLIC IF YOU CAN KEEP IT.
JOINING US NOW FOR A RARE LIVE
INTERVIEW SUPREME COURT JUSTICE
NEIL GORSUCH GOOD MORNING TO YOU
>> MERRY CHRISTMAS.
AINSLEY: MERRY CHRISTMAS I LOVE
THAT YOU SAY THAT.
WHAT AN HONOR TO TALK TO YOU.
LET ME START WITH THE SEPARATION
OF POWERS.
WHEN THERE IS A CONFLICT BETWEEN
THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE
LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, WHAT IS THE
ROLE OF THE JUDICIAL BRANCH?
>> WELL, ONE THING I WANTED TO
TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, AND I
THINK WRITING ABOUT IT AND
TALKING ABOUT IT FOR YEARS IS
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SEPARATION
OF POWERS AND HOW IT KEEPS US
FREE, AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE
ROLE OF THE JUDICIARY, I BELIEVE
THAT THE ROLE IS TO BE FAITHFUL
TO THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF THE
CONSTITUTION.
I TELL MY LAW CLERKS I HAVE JUST
TWO RULES.
RULE NUMBER ONE, DON'T MAKE
THINGS UP.
RULE NUMBER TWO, WHEN YOU'RE IN
DOUBT, WHEN EVERYBODY IS YELLING
AT YOU, BEGGING YOU TO DO THIS,
OR THREATENING YOU TO DO THAT,
REFER BACK TO RULE NUMBER ONE.
AINSLEY: I LIKE THAT.
YOU ALWAYS HEAR CONSERVATIVES
WANT ORIGINAL, CONSTITUTIONALIST
S ON THE
SUPREME COURT.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT IT MEANS TO
BE ORIGINALIST OR CONSTITUTIONAL
IST, AND HOW DO
YOU DESCRIBE YOUR JUDICIAL
PHILOSOPHY?
>> WELL I THINK IT'S BADLY
UNDERSTOOD AND KIND OF A
MISLEADING NAME.
OUR FOLKS WHO DISAGREE CALL
THEMSELVES LIVING CONSTITUTIONAL
ISTS.
WELL WHO WANTS A DEAD
CONSTITUTION?
I DON'T.
I WANT AN ENDURING CONSTITUTION
AND THE IDEA OF ORIGINALISM IS
JUST SIMPLY THAT JUDGES SHOULD
FOLLOW THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF
THE WORDS ON THE PAGE, AND
NEITHER ADD THINGS THAT AREN'T
THERE, NOR TAKEAWAY THINGS THAT
ARE THERE, AND I WORRY THAT BOTH
OF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN WHEN WE
DEPART FROM THE ORIGINAL MEANING
OF THE CONSTITUTION.
I'LL GIVE YOU A COUPLE EXAMPLES.
THE FIRST TIME THE SUPREME COURT
OF THE UNITED STATES REALLY
DEPARTED FROM THE ORIGINAL
MEANING OF THE CONSTITUTION WAS
PERHAPS IN DREAD SCOTT WHEN THE
COURT FOUND A RIGHT FOR WHITE
PERSONS TO OWN BLACK PERSONS AS
SLAVES IN THE TERRITORIES OF THE
UNITED STATES.
SCOUR THE DOCUMENT AS LONG AS
YOU WANT YOU WON'T FIND THAT
RIGHT THERE, THEY MADE IT UP OR
TAKE THE SIXTH AMENDMENT WHICH
GUARANTEES YOU A RIGHT TO
CONFRONT YOUR ACCUSERS IN ANY
CASE AGAINST YOU.
FOR YEARS, THE SUPREME COURT OF
THE UNITED STATES SAID NO.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO ENFORCE THAT
RIGHT, EXCEPT FOR WHEN WE THINK
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.
THE ORIGINALISM SAYS NO TO BOTH
OF THOSE THINGS.
IT SAYS WE'RE NOT GOING TO ADD
THINGS.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE THINGS
AWAY BUT THE JUDGE'S JOB IS TO
BE FAITHFUL TO THE CONSTITUTION,
AT ALL TIMES.
NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.
AINSLEY: WHAT WOULD JAMES
MADISON WHO WROTE THE
CONSTITUTION, WHAT WOULD HE SAY
ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT TODAY?
>> WELL I THINK ONE THING HE
MIGHT TELL US IS TO PAY
ATTENTION TO THE SEPARATION OF
POWERS.
MADISON ORIGINALLY THOUGHT WE
DIDN'T NEED A BILL OF RIGHTS.
HE WROTE THE BILL OF RIGHTS, BUT
HE THOUGHT WHAT WOULD REALLY
KEEP US FREE IS THE SEPARATION
OF POWERS AND IF YOU LOOK AROUND
THE WORLD TODAY I THINK HE HAS A
POINT.
EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS A
GREAT BILL OF RIGHTS THESE DAYS.
MY PERSONAL FAVORITE IS NORTH
KOREAS.
YES, NORTH KOREA.
IT PROMISES EVERYTHING WE HAVE,
THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH, A
RIGHT TO PRIVACY AND MY PERSONAL
FAVORITE ESPECIALLY THIS TIME OF
THE YEAR, THE RIGHTS TO
RELAXATION.
AINSLEY: [LAUGHTER]
>> BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER
IS THAT THOSE RIGHTS AREN'T
WORTH THE INK ON THE PAGE AND
THEY'RE NOT BECAUSE ALL POWERS
ACCUMULATED IN ONE MANS HANDS
AND WHAT MADISON KNEW IS THAT
PEOPLE AREN'T ANGELS AND THAT WE
NEED TO SEPARATE POWERS TO KEEP
US FREE AND I WORRY TODAY WHEN I
READ THAT ONLY ABOUT A THIRD OF
AMERICANS CAN NAME THE THREE
BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, AND 10%
OF AMERICANS APPARENTLY BELIEVE
SERVING ON THE UNITED STATES
SUPREME COURT AND YOU KNOW HER
AS JUDGE JUDY AND I LOVE JUDGE
JUDY, BUT SHE'S NOT ONE OF MY
COLLEAGUES, AND THE TRUTH IS,
THAT OUR RIGHTS INCLUDING THE
SEPARATION OF POWERS ARE ONLY AS
GOOD AS THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO
KEEP THEM THERE.
DANIEL WEBSTER SAID THAT IT TOOK
6,000 YEARS FOR A SELF-GOVERNING
PEOPLE TO ARRANGE OUR
CONSTITUTION AND IT REALLY WAS A
MIRACLE, AND THOSE THINGS AREN'T
KEPT, BY ACCIDENT, AND THERE'S
NO GUARANTEE THEY WILL ENDURE
UNLESS PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THEM.
AINSLEY: I KNOW YOUR FAITH IS
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO YOU AND
THE DECLARATION SAYS WE ARE
ENDOWED BY OUR CREATE OR WITH
RIGHTS AMONG WHICH ARE LIFE,
LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF
HAPPINESS SO WHAT DID OUR FRAMER
S, WHAT DID OUR FOUNDERS
MEAN BY GOD GIVEN RIGHTS?
>> WELL, THEY WROTE DOWN THE
RIGHTS THAT THEY THOUGHT WERE
TERRIBLY IMPORTANT IN THE BILL
OF RIGHTS AND THEY LEFT IT TO US
WE THE PEOPLE, TO DECIDE WHEN TO
ADD TO THEM, AND WHEN TO TAKE
THEM AWAY.
THEY DIDN'T LEAVE IT TO NINE
OLDER, I CAN SAY THAT NOW,
JUDGES IN WASHINGTON, TO RULE A
COUNTRY, CROSSING A CONTINENT,
COMPOSED OF 330 MILLION
AMERICANS AND TO THOSE WHO SAY
THAT WE CAN'T RULE OURSELVES,
THAT WE THE PEOPLE CAN'T DO THIS
, I TRY TO REMIND YOUNG
PEOPLE ABOUT THE STORY OF GREG W
ASSON, WHOSE A COLLEGE STUDENT
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS IN
1992.
HE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MOST
RECENT AMENDMENT TO THE
CONSTITUTION, THE 27TH AMENDMENT
WE THE PEOPLE, WE CAN DO THIS.
WE CAN GOVERN OURSELVES.
IT'S A GREAT STORY.
AINSLEY: I KNOW THERE WAS SOME
JUSTICES YOU REALLY LOOK UP TO,
I WANT TO GET TO A STORY COMING
UP IN JUST A MOMENT BUT I ALSO
WANT TO QUOTE SOMETHING YOU
WROTE IN YOUR BOOK A REPUBLIC,
IF YOU CAN KEEP IT.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE GOOD AND
FAITHFUL JUDGE, YOU HAVE TO
RESIGN YOURSELF TO THE FACTS
THAT YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS GOING TO
LIKE THE CONCLUSIONS YOU REACH.
IF YOU LIKE ALL OF THEM ALL THE
TIME, YOU'RE PROBABLY DOING
SOMETHING RIGHT.
I MEAN WRONG, EXCUSE ME.
>> WRONG!
AINSLEY: HAVE YOU FOUND THAT TO
BE TRUE IN YOUR TWO YEARS?
>> WELL OF COURSE.
I'VE BEEN A JUDGE FOR A LONG
TIME, AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER
IS ANY GOOD JUDGE WILL LOOK BACK
AND SAY THAT I MAY NOT AGREE
WITH THIS POLICY, OR I MAY NOT
HAVE VOTED FOR THAT LAW, BUT THE
PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVES CHOSE
TO MAKE THAT LAW, AND MY DUTY AS
A JUDGE, WHEN I PUT ON THAT ROBE
, IS TO PUT ASIDE MY
PERSONAL PREFERENCES AND TO
FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE MY DUTY
WHICH IS TO UPHOLD THOSE LAWS TO
APPLY THEM NEUTRALLY.
THEY SAY THAT THE ROBE IS
SUPPOSED TO CHANGE A PERSON WHEN
THEY TAKE THE BENCH AND I
BELIEVE IT DOES.
WE HAVE A THOUSAND WONDERFUL MEN
AND WOMEN IN THE FEDERAL
JUDICIARY WHOEVER ARE DAY TAKE
THAT OATH SERIOUSLY.
AINSLEY: WE'RE GLAD THAT YOU DO.
I KNOW YOU CLERKED FOR BYRON
WHITE, THE FIRST JUSTICE NEIL US
FROM COLORADO WHERE YOU'RE FROM,
APPOINTED BY KENNEDY AND YOU
TELL A GREAT STORY I WATCHED AN
INTERVIEW WITH YOU AND I WANT
YOU TO SHARE IT WITH THE VIEWERS
WHEN YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE
HALLWAY AND SAW THE PORTRAITS OF
THE OTHER JUSTICES WHAT WAS THAT
CONVERSATION?
>> SURE.
SO BYRON WHITE WAS MAYBE THE
MOST FAMOUS FROM COLORADO OF THE
20TH CENTURY, MAYBE EVER.
HE HAD BEEN A SCHOLAR, AND LED
THE NFL IN RUSHING, THE HIGHEST
PAID FOOTBALL PLAYER OF HIS DAY,
FIRST IN HIS CLASS FROM YALE LAW
SCHOOL AND CLERKED FOR THE
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED
STATES, JACK KENNEDY'S BEST
FRIEND AND SERVED ON THE SUPREME
COURT FOR 31 YEARS.
HE WAS MY HERO AS A YOUNG MAN,
AND I GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO
CLERK WITH HIM, WHICH WAS A
DREAM COME TRUE.
ONE DAY WE'RE WALKING DOWN THE
MAIN HALL OF THE SUPREME COURT
OF THE UNITED STATES WHERE THE
PORTRAITS OF PAST JUSTICES HANG
ON THE WALLS AND HE LEANED OVER
TO ME AND SAID GORSUCH, HOW MANY
OF THESE CAN YOU REALLY NAME?
AND I HAD A MOMENT WHERE I HAD
TO DECIDE WHETHER I WAS GOING TO
BE HONEST OR TRY TO IMPRESS THE
OLD MAN, AND I WAS HONEST AND I
TOLD HIM ABOUT HALF, BOSS.
AND HE LEANED OVER TO ME AND HE
SAID ME TOO!
AND THEN HE SAID SOMETHING THAT
REALLY SURPRISED ME.
THAT SURPRISED ME ENOUGH BUT HE
NEXT SAID, AND THAT'S THE WAY IT
SHOULD BE.
WE'RE ALL FORGOTTEN SOON ENOUGH.
AINSLEY: PRETTY POWERFUL.
THOSE WORDS STUCK WITH ME
BECAUSE I THOUGHT NOBODY WILL
EVER FORGET BYRON WHITE, BUT THE
TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, WE'RE
NOW MANY YEARS AFTER HE'S PASSED
AND HE WAS RIGHT AND I CAME TO
REALIZE HE WASN'T TELLING ME
SOMETHING SAD OR MELANCHOLY.
HE WAS TELLING ME SOMETHING
GREAT AND IMPORTANT THAT WE'RE
ALL PART OF SOMETHING A LOT
DEEPER, MORE MEANINGFUL THAN
OURSELVES.
THIS WONDERFUL REPUBLIC REALLY
IS A MIRACLE IN HUMAN HISTORY
AND THERE'S NO GREATER PRIVILEGE
THAN THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEND A
LIFETIME IN ITS SERVICE.
AINSLEY: A GREAT REMINDER TO BE
HUMBLE.
SOMETIMES HE DISAPPOINTED THE
PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT HE WOULD
CONSISTENTLY VOTE LEFT AS A
LIBERAL ON THE COURT.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM HIM?
>> WELL, HE DISAPPOINTED PEOPLE
ON BOTH SIDES, I'M SURE, AND
WHAT WAS WONDERFUL ABOUT BYRON
WHITE WAS THAT HE HAD THE
STRENGTH OF CHARACTER NOT TO
CARE.
THE COURAGE OF HIS CONVICTIONS,
AND THE INCREDIBLE INTELLIGENCE
AND HARD WORK TO FOLLOW A CASE
THROUGH TO THE VERY BOTTOM AND
REACH AN INDEPENDENT JUDGMENT ON
HIS OWN AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE
FORTITUDE THAT MADISON AND THE
FRAMERS HAD IN MIND FOR JUDGES
WHEN THEY ESTABLISHED ARTICLE 3
OF THE CONSTITUTION.
IT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF A GREAT
JUDGE.
AINSLEY: THERE IS AN IDEOLOGICAL
DIVIDE AMONGST THE JUSTICES ON
THE COURT BUT YOU HAVE WRITTEN,
YOU WROTE THAT WE SHAKE HANDS
EVERY TIME WE GATHER WE SING TO
ONE ANOTHER, WE SING HAPPY
BIRTHDAY WITH EACH OTHER, WE
HAVE LUNCH TOGETHER, WE DON'T
TALK SHOP, WE HAVE CHRISTMAS
PARTIES AND WE SING CHRISTMAS
SONGS AT THESE PARTIES.
WHAT HAS IT BEEN LIKE OVER THE
LAST FEW YEARS FOR YOU?
>> IT'S A WONDERFUL GROUP OF
PEOPLE AND OF COURSE WE DON'T
ALWAYS AGREE.
YOU GIVE US THE 70 HARDEST CASES
IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
TO DECIDE EVERY YEAR.
OF COURSE THERE ARE GOING TO BE
DISAGREEMENTS, BUT THEY'RE NOT
PERSONAL DISAGREEMENTS, AND IT'S
A WONDERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE, AND
YES, WE EAT LUNCH TOGETHER, WE
SHAKE HANDS, WE SING POORLY, BUT
ENTHUSIASTICALLY, BOTH AT
CHRISTMASTIME AND AT BIRTHDAYS,
AND WE PLAY PRACTICAL JOKES ON
ONE ANOTHER TOO.
I THINK MY FAVORITE ONE IS SEWN
A SOTOMAYOR CAME IN ONE DAY
AFTER THE YANKEES HAD A GOOD RUN
AND SHE WAS WEARING A BLACK ROBE
WITH PINSTRIPES ON IT AND THE
NEW YORK YANKEES EMBLEM ON HER
CHEST AND I THINK ALL OF THE
OTHER JUSTICES WERE WONDERING
QUIETLY, ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO
WEAR THAT ON THE BENCH?
AND BUT NOBODY SAID ANYTHING AND
WE'RE LINING UP TO GO INTO THE
COURTROOM, AND FINALLY ONE OF MY
COLLEAGUES SAID SONJA, ARE YOU
REALLY REALLY GOING TO WEAR THAT
AND SHE SAID NO, I WAS JUST
WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO ASK.
AINSLEY: [LAUGHTER]
THAT'S GREAT.
YOUR WIFE IS PRECIOUS.
YOUR FAMILY.
I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW HOW HAS IT
BEEN LIVING IN WASHINGTON?
YOU'RE FROM COLORADO, BIG FLY
FISHERMAN?
>> I AM.
AND I MISS COLORADO JUST ABOUT
EVERY DAY.
I THINK I REALIZED THAT LIFE WAS
GOING TO CHANGE MAYBE THE DAY I
WAS NOMINATED, AND THE PRESIDENT
XIED US TO COME TO WASHINGTON
BUT TO DO IT QUIETLY.
HE WANTED TO SURPRISE THE
ANNOUNCEMENT AND HOW DO YOU GET
INTO THE WHITE HOUSE WITHOUT
ANYBODY KNOWING?
AND IT TURNS OUT IT'S THROUGH
THE KITCHEN DOOR, AND SO LOUISE
AND I SNUCK IN THROUGH THE
KITCHEN AND THE PRESIDENT
GRACIOUSLY ALLOWED US TO USE THE
LINCOLN BEDROOM AS MY OFFICE FOR
THE DAY AND I GOT TO WRITE MY
REMARKS FOR THE EVENING NEXT TO
THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS, IT WAS A
MOVING EXPERIENCE.
LOUISE WAS GIVEN USE OF THE
QUEENS BET ROOM ACROSS THE HALL,
SHE'S BRITISH AND THAT WAS QUITE
SOMETHING FOR HER, THAT'S WHERE
CHURCHILL STAYED DURING THE
SECOND WORLD WAR BUT AT ANY RATE
, LOUISE WAS ALLOWED TO CALL
BACK TO ENGLAND.
WE WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO TELL
ANYBODY BUT SHE COULD CALL HER
FATHER IN ENGLAND BECAUSE IT'S
ENGLAND AND WHO CARES AND SHE
WOKE UP HER DAD IN THE MIDDLE OF
THE NIGHT AND SAID DAD, YOU'RE
NEVER GOING TO LEAVE IT BUT NEIL
IS ABOUT TO BE NOMINATED TO THE
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED
STATES AND SHE SAID HONEY I'VE
BEEN WATCHING YOUR AMERICAN TV,
I STAYED UP LATE AND I TELL YOU
ABOUT AN HOUR AGO THEY HAD
ANOTHER FELLOW, DEAR FRIEND OF
MINE, CAUGHT ON TV DRIVING TO
WASHINGTON FROM PENNSYLVANIA AND
I'M AFRAID IT'S GOING TO BE HIM.
AINSLEY: [LAUGHTER]
>> AND LOUISE SAID BUT DAD, DAD
, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE
NEIL.
WE'RE SITTING IN THE LINCOLN
BEDROOM AND HE SAID HONEY, I
UNDERSTAND THAT.
AINSLEY: WE CAN ALL RELATE TO
THESE STORIES.
>> HONEY I UNDERSTAND THAT BUT
THE OTHER MIGHT BE JUST DOWN THE
HALL, SO IT'S NICE TO KNOW THAT
WHILE LOTS OF THINGS CHANGE, IN
LAWS DON'T.
AINSLEY: THANK YOU.
PICK UP HIS BOOK A REPUBLIC, IF