In an exclusive CNN report, sour
say special counsel
Jack Smith
as investigators are interested
in a chaotic Oval
Office meeting during the final
of Donald Trump's presidency.
In that heated
December 2020 meeting,
outside advisers
faced off with top West Wing att
pushing for extreme efforts
to keep Trump in office.
Even martial law.
Joined now by CNN's
Ed Cohen for more details.
What are investigators
trying to learn about that meeti
and how might that be
critical to this case?
Yeah, Jim, we've learned that
prosecutors have asked multiple
in just the last few weeks
about this December 1820
20 Oval Office meeting.
Obviously, that happened after T
not only lost the election,
but after states had already
ratified their results.
So it's pretty locked in
waiting for ahead of January six
But in this meeting,
we had a group of outside
advisers, people like Michael Fl
Trump's former
national security adviser,
people like Patrick
Byrne, the former Overstock CEO,
and Sidney Powell
really pitching Trump
on these extreme ideas
for keeping him in power, overtu
the election results
they got severe pushback
from White House attorneys,
but Rudy Giuliani,
who also sat with prosecutors re
was asked about this meeting as
It's interesting
because Rudy participated
in the meeting itself
and even proposed a plan
where they could gain access
to voting systems in Georgia
using local election officials
who were maybe sympathetic
to their cause.
So interesting that Jack
Smith and his prosecutors
are asking about this meeting
at this stage
in the investigation
when it appears
there could be nearing
a charging decision,
at least part of the probe.
Yeah, I remember
reporting on the Trump
presidency at that time
and would talk to Trump's own ad
And they were saying,
what are some of these people do
in the Oval Office
coming in and out of the West
Wing talking to the president
of United States about this stuf
And, Jack, we also learned this
that an attorney disciplinary
committee recommended
that Rudy
Giuliani be disbarred
in Washington, D.C.,
for his efforts
on behalf of Trump
in those days
when they were trying
to overturn the 2020 election re
What can you tell us about that?
Just like these advisers and Rud
we're told in this Oval
Office meeting that they had no
of fraud.
The Miss Bar panel,
a sort of a disciplinary panel,
has recommended that
he should not be able
to practice law anymore
because he filed these lawsuits
without any evidence of election
There ruling was very harsh.
They called it a destructive cas
and he claimed fraud. He had no
So it has to go through two more
The D.C.
Court of Appeals
has to also agree
with the recommendation,
but a blow to Rudy Giuliani's
legal career potentially here.
And that's
what the committee
in the statement here you can se
he claimed massive election frau
but had no evidence of it.
By prosecuting that destructive
Giuliani, a sworn officer of the
forfeited his right to practice
He should be disbarred.
I mean, you don't see that kind
happening every day,
especially to somebody
who was once dubbed America's ma
That Cohen, thanks very much.
Let's bring in
Ellie Honig
for more legal perspective
on all of this.
He's a former federal prosecutor
and a CNN senior legal analyst.
And, by the way,
the author of the book Untouchab
How Powerful People Get Away Wit
Ellie. Always great to talk to y
Help us understand
why this 2020 Oval Office
meeting is so significant
to investigators.
I mean,
I remember
when this was being reported at
there was a lot of interest
in what was going on inside that
And lo and behold,
it looks like it's going to be
pretty critical to Jackson, this
Yeah.
Jim, this tells us
that DOJ injects
this team are looking at
absolutely everything as they sh
That's the job of a prosecutor.
And while the worst ideas
that were posed to Donald Trump
at this meeting declaring martia
seizing voting machines,
declaring Sidney Powell special
while those were not followed,
this was still a seminal moment
for everything else that did fol
This is the sort of ground zero,
because after this,
we saw some of the same people
organizing the attempt to pressu
legislators and state governors,
organizing the effort
to submit these false elector do
to the National Archives, and ul
orchestrating the attempt to pre
the vice president, Mike Pence,
to throw out the electoral votes
So this is a crucial part of the
And as a prosecutor,
you absolutely have to have it
as part of your overall presenta
and consideration of
who to charge with what.
Yeah, I remember talking
to my sources at the time,
and these sources
were describing an effort
that was
essentially throwing everything
but the kitchen sink well,
including the kitchen sink
trying to overturn
those election results.
So it's no surprise
that this is a key
part of this investigation.
And we're also learning
that Rudy Giuliani sat with inve
last month
as part of a voluntary interview
was asked about this meeting.
What is the significance of that
This is such an interesting deve
And Jim, candidly,
I can't figure out what to make
even as a former DOJ prosecutor.
Here's why.
Ordinarily,
you would never bring in someone
nor would that person come in
for this sort of voluntary inter
if they were a target,
if they were someone
who is likely to be charged.
It's unfair
and bad practice for DOJ to do t
If someone's a target
and no decent lawyer, Rudy
Giuliani has a decent lawyer.
Bob Costello would ever agree to
Also, ordinarily,
I would say this
kind of meeting is a precursor
to a full blown, full operation.
However, there's no way
you can cooperate.
Rudy Giuliani
as a prosecutor
in the full sense of the word,
you kept up Rudy
Giuliani on the stand
and offer him to a jury as a wit
He's one of the least
credible people in this whole sa
So what seems safe to say,
given those two things is
the DOJ is doing its diligence h
They need to talk to everybody.
They need to get all the facts.
If they think Rudy
is offering some facts that are
and truthful, fine.
If they think he's lying
or shading the truth, fine.
They never have to use him as a
So it's a curious development.
But I think they're trying to ma
that they look under every stone
in L.A..
The New York Times reported
that Trump's former
White House
chief of staff, John
Kelly, said
that Trump asked
about having the IRS investigate
Peter Strzok and Lisa Page.
Two FBI officials
who are involved
in the Russia investigation.
What do you make of that?
Not surprising in several respec
First of all, Donald Trump
made it a habit when he was pres
I've tried to use the levers
of executive power
to target his perceived
political enemies.
Most famously,
DOJ used DOJ all the time and ur
all the time to go after people
in the FBI, people
who he perceived as his enemies.
Here, I think what's important t
is he singling out
these two people, Peter
Strzok and Lisa Page,
who were part of the Mueller tea
and he has gone after them
publicly more times than we can
So it's no question
that he really had it in for the
It is important to note,
of course, he asked about it.
He did not follow through on it.
There's no evidence that they we
in fact, targeted by the IRS.
But there's no question
Donald Trump wanted to go after
And former aide
to former President Trump Walton
pleaded not guilty to multiple c
related to the mishandling
of classified documents at Mar a
I mean, what do you expect?
Not might follow Trump's playboo
and try to delay this trial
as much as possible
right up against the 24 election
or after the 24 election.
Can he do that as well or as eff
as a former president
with that kind of a legal team
that Donald Trump has
So I think it's a safe bet that
is going to be in league
with Donald Trump here.
There's no indication
that Walmart has flipped or will
although I've seen people surpri
with cooperate in my career here
Yeah,
I think Wal-Mart
is going to be very much on the
strategic page is Donald Trump.
I think he's going to fight thes
vigorously.
I think he's going to be
right on board with
let's try to push this thing off
till after the election.
And just inherently,
if you have two defendants,
there's more work to do.
There's more discovery
to turn over, there's
more motions to be brought.
Then you have if you have one
and I think, well, Laura
and Donald Trump.
But wouldn't it all surprise me
if we find out in the coming day
and weeks
that they have
what we call a joint defense agr
which is perfectly legitimate,
nothing illegal about it, but it
when multiple defendants decide
we're going to work together,
we're going to have
our lawyers work together,
and we're going to have a unifie
defense here.
And I absolutely expect to see t
With respect to Nada and Donald
they do work closely with one an
So that would not be too surpris
All right, Ali.
Thanks so much for your time.
We appreciate it.
Thanks.
All right. All right.