Welcome back to the show.
The first public impeachment hearings
are in a couple of days.
Uh, in the planning of this event-- this is gonna be huge--
have you thought of getting that guy
who's gonna come and be like,
"Let's get ready to rumble."
Have you thought of that?
I was just working on getting Anna Kendrick to come join us,
'cause, you know, that, that will improve our ratings.
It is a big-- It is a really, really big moment,
not just for Congress, but for America as a whole.
Now, as we saw in that clip,
you believe that Donald Trump
has done something that is an impeachable offense.
Many Democrats do, in fact,
more than half of the country believes in impeachment.
Why do you think this was an impeachable offense?
Well, there's two things
going on here that are impeachable.
Number one is a corrupt abuse of power.
And that's the difference between Donald Trump,
as you just saw in that clip, uh, extorting, essentially,
a foreign leader-- a vulnerable foreign leader,
as we speak, the Ukrainians are fighting the Russians--
and saying, as he so gracefully put it,
"We want you to do us a favor, though."
And, of course, at the same time,
military aid is being held up,
and a meeting in the White House--
which is a big deal for the new president of Ukraine--
is being held up.
Um, that is--- It has nothing to do with our foreign policy.
It has everything to do with the personal political interest
of the president of the United States.
And I don't care if you're a Republican or a Democrat,
that is not okay.
The other piece of this, of course,
is we have an ambassador.
And the American public is gonna hear from her on Friday.
All three witnesses,
diplomats who are as sharp, patriotic,
serving under Democratic and Republican administrations
over the many, many years, veterans, in some cases,
uh, who was fired.
She was fired because some weird combination
of Rudy Giuliani and shady folks in Ukraine
decided that she wasn't on Donald Trump's team.
-Mm-hmm. -And that just can't happen.
You say it's not okay,
and you specifically use the word "extortion."
It's interesting, because "quid pro quo"
has been the term that everybody's using.
But-but you're not a fan of that phrase. Why?
Well, the main reason I'm not a fan of that phrase is that...
And-and there's a reason why the
Republicans, who, of course, have been
throwing every variety of spaghetti
against the wall to see what sticks,
focused on quid pro quo.
'Cause quid pro quo is, "I'm gonna hand you
"a suitcase of money, and in exchange,
you're gonna do this for me."
Now... By the way,
the chief of staff admitted that that existed.
Uh, Ambassador Sondland, uh, in his revised testimony
after he, uh, refreshed his recollection,
-admitted that there was a, uh, a-a quid pro quo. -Mm-hmm.
But the point is if you... If that's all you focus on,
you miss the extortion.
I mean, it's right out of The Godfather
when somebody in a position of immense power
looks at somebody not in a position of immense power
and says, "I want you to do us a favor, though."
I mean, look, the message is not missed.
Trump-Trump and the Republicans have said, though,
this had nothing to do with extortion.
It was about America saying, "We want to make sure
"that there is no corruption in Ukraine
"before we give Ukrainians money,
"and part of that corruption could be Hunter Biden
and Joe Biden and what they've done."
So, what do you make of that argument, then?
Um, it's absurd.
Uh, all over the world,
uh, the United States government tries to promote,
uh, clean elections, a clean economy,
and there's all kinds of ways we do that.
Uh, that's what, actually, Joe Biden was doing
when he was encouraging the Ukrainians
to get rid of a clearly corrupt prosecutor
that the world knew was corrupt.
He was executing the anti-corruption policy
of the United States of America. We do it all the time.
It bears absolutely no relation to the president saying,
"I want you to investigate my political opponent."
And if you look at the transcript...
And, boy, I-I don't often agree with the president.
I agree with him on this one. Read the transcript.
He does not use the word "corruption."
He mentions the Bidens over and over again.
So we cannot lose the fact
that, uh, that there is a radical difference
between doing what we do all over the world,
encouraging an end to corruption,
and saying, "I want you to look into my political opponent."
The-These proceedings were-were...
were happening at a pace that was, um,
dictated by the Democrats for a very long time.
You know, Nancy Pelosi said, "We're not gonna launch
"a formal, uh, proceeding.
"We're gonna take our time with the inquiry.
We-we want to get all our ducks in a row."
Um, some have said the Democrats have made a mistake
in not waiting for Bolton, as one
of the most prominent notetakers in the administration.
Is there a reason the Democrats are doing this now?
Is-- Why not wait a little bit longer
and make sure you've got even more witnesses?
Or-or is this a matter of "timing is important"?
I-I think the main reason for the timing
is that the facts are really not anymore in dispute.
And it-- and it's funny. When in-- When Republicans
are interviewed, uh, they never say,
"Well, this fact is clearly wrong."
They-they say the process is ugly.
They say this is not fair.
Uh, they say, "Yeah, this was pretty bad,
but it's not impeachable bad." Right?
-Right. -So the facts are there.
And, of course, we'd want to hear from John Bolton.
Personally, I want to hear from Rudy Giuliani,
who, uh, you know, again, another sort of chapter
of this bizarre saga, where you have
-the president's personal lawyer-- -Mm-hmm.
he's got no position with the United States government--
running around Ukraine, saying God knows what
to God knows whom, probably--
We all watch Rudy on TV. I imagine
those weren't particularly diplomatic conversations.
Um, and, uh, you know, I would really like to understand that.
Because we can't have private citizens, of course,
carrying out corrupt enterprises,
uh, in vulnerable countries.
But the bottom line is that the facts are there
and the open hearings will make them plain to all Americans.
It's interesting, because America's history
with open hearings has shown that--
For instance, with Nixon,
once those hearings became public,
the swell of support for impeachment
increased dramatically, because people started to hear
and see for themselves what the president was accused of.
It is different now though in that people get their news
from completely different sources.
So are you worried that this could be one of those things
where the hearings are happening
but people who watch Fox News
and people who consume media that supports Donald Trump,
they're just gonna get information that is like,
"No, nothing is happening.
Everything is fine. Look the other way"?
Or do you think this will shift the conversation even more?
Well, the conversation has already shifted.
I mean, when the Ukraine thing broke,
the numbers-- the way the American people thought
about impeachment changed pretty dramatically.
And there was a ten, 15, almost 20-point swing.
We're in a world today where some 49% of the American public
thinks the president should be impeached and removed.
That was not true before this Ukraine thing.
That said-- and-and here's what really worries me--
um, being elected to an office like the one I hold
or that senators hold, there's a profound public trust.
And it's not just to the president. It's to our system.
It's to the Constitution.
It's to the resiliency of our democracy.
And when Lindsey Graham or my Republican colleagues
do everything they can to try to make it sound
like this is okay-- and I don't just mean the Ukraine stuff--
I mean, you know-- This is the first president in our history
who, before the election, said he might not recognize
the legitimacy of that election.
He challenges judges.
He calls the press "the enemy of the people."
This stuff is eroding the cornerstones of our democracy.
And where are my Republican colleagues in saying,
"This is not okay?"
Let me ask you about the Republican colleagues.
They've said it's not about that.
You know, people like Lindsey Graham have said,
"No, this whole impeachment thing is incorrect.
"This is not how you should be removing a president.
A president should be removed by the people in an election."
That's what they say. "Let's let the American people decide,
because this impeachment thing feels like a witch hunt."
How do you respond to that criticism from their side?
Well, the statement... So, Lindsey Graham called
the impeachment process illegitimate.
Folks on the right are calling it a coup.
This is a specifically enumerated remedy,
in the Constitution of the United States
that we all swear to uphold,
for holding the president accountable.
By the way, it turns out, if you read the Mueller report,
uh, that it's the only way to hold the president accountable,
because under the opinion of the Department of Justice,
-the president can't be charged with a crime. -Right.
So it is the only way. It is the constitutional way
that we hold a president accountable.
Um, and so, too, again, attack that process
and to call it a "coup," you know, that sound you hear
is the cornerstone's of our system beginning
-to erode a little bit. -Oh.
It sounds like there's gonna be a showdown.
From Wednesday onwards, America will never be the same.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
And, uh, good luck with the hearings.
-Thank you so much. Thanks. -We'll see how it goes.
Congressman Jim Himes, everybody.