And again later this week, President Biden will visit Saudi Arabia
a country as we just heard he labeled a pariah during his campaign.
Navarro's picks up the conversation from there.
That's right, Judy for more on President Biden's trip and whether
it's in America's interest for him to go to Saudi Arabia. We get
two views. James Jeffrey had a 35 year career in the Foreign service
and served as US ambassador to Iraq and Turkey. He is now at the
Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars.
That's a think tank. Dalia Dasa K is a senior fellow at the University
of California, Los Angeles. Burkle Center for International Relations.
She has written widely about the Middle East. Welcome to you Both.
Thank you for joining us tonight. Dahlia Daisuke. I want to begin
with you, you have said.
President Biden's decision to visit Saudi Arabia is a mistake. It
never should have been planned. Explain to me why.
Yeah, well, I think the dilemma is that the president clearly has
compromised on us values and actually interest in accountable partners.
And the likelihood is he's not likely to get many significant strategic
gains from this visit as your piece set up. This is a leadership
now in Saudi Arabia, believed to be responsible for the murder of
the Washington Post Journalists.
Is continuing to repress repress dissidents both inside the country
and abroad, including US citizens and launched a catastrophic war
in Yemen. So if you're going to make Saudi Arabia the centerpiece
of your foreign policy
It's I think fair to ask, What are we going to get in return? From
a US perspective, It's not clear the Saudis are going to be able,
even if they're willing, given the tight oil market to significantly
increase oil output to affect oil prices at the pump.
Israeli normalization with the Saudis, which is shaping up to be
a big centerpiece of this trip, Um is is normalization is happening
even without presidential visit, and it doesn't look like a major
breakthrough despite these modest symbolic gains.
Is in the offing. And finally, the idea of using this visit. To kind
of turn regional partners away from global competitors like China
and Russia is often is also a little bit unrealistic. These partners
are quite invested in these relationships. We've seen this most recently.
In our regional partners and willingness to confront Putin and join
in international sanctions against Russia to bring in Ambassador
Jeffrey Here. It is a striking 1 80 ambassador from pariah to a presidential
visit. Doesn't this visit help rehabilitate Saudi Arabia on the world
stage?
It's certainly emphasizes not just Saudi Arabia, but the importance
of the whole region. Let me emphasize is not just going to Saudi
Arabia. He's going to Israel. He'll meet with the Palestinian leadership
will meet with all of the Gulf States. Iraq.
Jordanian and Egyptian leaders. There's a purpose to this is he laid
out in the Washington Post its to help integrate the region to preserve
security to advance stability and most importantly, as he said, to
promote US interests with facing an existential threat from China
and Russia worldwide and in the Middle East by their partner, particularly
Russia's Iran, he's trying to build up a by with and through with
the countries of the region.
To deal with these threats.
They won't deal 100% with them, but they're better on a side than
against us. And as far as human rights go, the biggest human rights
threat in the world today is emanating from Russia and China because
they have totalitarian systems have the capability of threatening
all of us if we don't find a way to mobilize the globe against them,
and that's what he's doing in the Middle East. Right now, I'm a It
wasn't necessary for him to go to secure some of those things as
you're talking about to work towards those goals to secure some of
the steps that
Nick Schifrin just reported they will be announcing. I mean, these
are all things that the US could be working on. The presidential
visit brings with it a level of prestige and credibility. Did he
have to go?
Absolutely. There's no doubt in my mind from everything I've learned
since the 19 seventies in this region, personal relationships and
underlying that friendships and trust, even with people we perhaps
not like to have a drink with in the evening is absolutely important.
If you want them to be predictable. If you want them to move on the
margins, and Dahlia is right. It's only going to be on the margins.
To help us when we're in a crunch, that's what he is doing. This
is an investment in a regional security architecture. It doesn't
promise immediate great benefits. But it's moving us in the right
direction. After 20 years of being in the various wrong directions
in the Middle East, Dalia what about that? You know Mohammed bin
Salman is 36 years old. He is clearly in line. He's not going anywhere.
Is this visit Justin acknowledgment that they're resigned to That
fact This is someone they have to work with.
Yeah, absolutely. Saudi Arabia is an important country. You're going
to have to work with it. The question is what you raised earlier,
which is why did it have to be a presidential visit? Choosing Saudi
Arabia is the first country in the Arab world to visit with this
track record and and, frankly policies that have really contradicted
and undermined us interest in a variety of arenas. It's a different
region than it was.
Decades ago, So I think that's really the question. Was this the
best way to do it? And did we miss an opportunity? Did the president
perhaps miss an opportunity to promote this positive vision that
I think the ambassador is outlining? Here? It is important to have
a regional vision.
Is he missing an opportunity to promote a more positive agenda that
isn't going back to kind of old standard policies of military relationships
with the authoritarian dictators, which are not bringing stability
and peace to the region. And I'm afraid that's the direction this
trip is headed. Ambassador Jeffrey I'll give you the last word here
and about the minute and a half we have left. Aliyah mentions his
human rights record as well, We know
Saudi Arabia carries out mass executions. We know there's been very
little accountability for the murder of General Kashiwagi can the
Biden administration continue to say their foreign policy is centered
on human rights after this visit?
Again. It depends on what he says to the Crown Prince when he's there
and what the Crown Prince does in his country afterwards. I think
that's an issue. We have to wait on. But I have to underline this
is not a truce between Geo strategic security on the one hand and
human rights on the other, if we do not get
Partners and allies throughout the world to work closely with us.
We're not going to stop the Russians in Ukraine. We're not going
to stop the Chinese and the South, trying to see her in Taiwan. We're
not going to stop the Iranians continuing to essentially ruined countries
as they have 11 on contributed to in Yemen, Syria and potentially
Iraq. That's the fear that the people of the region see that's why
they're turning to President Biden and everyone in the region is
delighted. He's coming out there, minus the Iranians.
Dahlia. What about that regional note as Ambassador Jeffrey just
mentioned and the potential normalization ahead for Israeli Saudi
relations.
Well look, Normalization is good, but I think we need to understand
that without dealing with the festering Palestinian conflict, there
will not ever be true Peace and stability in the region, Um, at least
of all for Palestinians and Israelis themselves and in terms of the
anti Iran front. I think we also have to understand. Yes. Many states
are looking for US engagement but are also concerned that they will
be in the cross hair.
Um, and be targeted by Iran with too active of an anti Iranian stance.
This is not a monolithic region. There are different viewpoints,
so it's going to be a long struggle for that. So we do need to think
about the balance of what we're risking here and we have American
forces in the region vulnerable to Iranian attacks and groups aligned
with Iran, So this trip carries risks as well as some questions about
what gains were getting.
The big trip will be following for sure. Ambassador Jim Jeffrey Dahlia
does Okay. Thank you both for your time.